Close

    • SLS AMG Black Series to come in coupe and roadster forms with 650 horsepower, price around $300,000-$350,000

      Autobild reports that the Mercedes SLS AMG will be getting a horsepower bump using the M159 (M156 variant) pushing 650 horsepower. For those counting, that will be an increase of approximately 87 horsepower over the standard SLS. That would also be 104 horsepower per liter which is a very impressive specific output for a V8 of that size. The other interesting bit of news is that it will not be limited to just coupes but supposedly will be available as a top down roadster. We'll see if AutoBild got this right soon enough, expect official details on the 2013 model year to come out in the next few months.




      This article was originally published in forum thread: SLS AMG Black Series to come in coupe and roadster forms with 650 horsepower, price around $300,000-$350,000 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 23 Comments
      1. Exeenom's Avatar
        Exeenom -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They both have dual clutches so it really isn't shift speed as the limitation with those transmissions really is just the speed at which you can move something mechanically at this point. We are talking shifts for both 30 times faster than you can blink your eye.

        The weight and launch due to a mid engine layout were likely the primary factors. The SLS also dyno's more horsepower I believe but I'm too lazy to go dig out it out right now.
        I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
        I don't see why the SLS would shift so much slower? It uses a Getrag unit from I what I understand which should be around the 8 ms mark.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
        I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
        Here is an old post of mine on the subject:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Now, here is actual documentation to support shift speeds and the reason why a dual clutch transmission simply can not be approached by an automatic or manual.

        A dual clutch transmission is essentially two manual transmissions in one housing. One gear set is responsible for odd gears and one gear set is responsible for even gears. The next gear is essentially already preselected. When one gear set is disengaged, the other is already in gear and it is basically an instantaneous shift with no perceivable interruption. It happens forty times faster than the blink of an eye.

        The VW group has their DSG numbers published and they are 8 milliseconds. Basically, a human being can not even perceive the gear change.

        The fastest automatic in the world is the Lexus IS-F gearbox, at 100 ms. The ZF transmission in BMW's is at the 200 ms mark.

        Unfortunately, a person with extreme bias posted numbers without realizing what they were posting or willing to admit reality, skewing numbers to misrepresent the facts due to personal issues.

        Well, here are the numbers with support.

        A long shift time is considered anything over 625 ms

        The average manual car driver: 500 ms - 1 s
        Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms
        Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
        BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 220 ms
        Ferrari 360: 150 ms
        Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms
        Lexus LFA: 150 ms
        Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms
        Nissan GT-R: 100ms
        BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms
        Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms
        Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
        Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
        All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms

        The source for shift times as well as DSG information is here if one is interested: http://paultan.org/2006/06/26/vw-pha...s-way-for-dsg/

        BMW has not posted official shift times for the DCT unfortunately. Why not? Getrag just hasn't released the info officially but 4 ms has been posted as a "leak" on M3post.

        The Nissan GTR time is stated odd and I believe it is simply due to how Nissan explains it cutting the shift time in R mode vs. regular mode. The GR6 Borg Warner tranny is not shifting slower than sequential manuals, just does not make sense. Maybe it is 100 ms though, but that would just be odd.

        Just how big of a difference does the DCT make? Even vs. the best auto transmission in the world for shift speed, it will be picking up a conservative tenth per shift. What about vs. a manual? Well, here is a professional driver in a manual car vs. the same car in DSG, see for yourself:



        So, hopefully this explains some things for people. All transmissions have their strengths and weaknesses, however, for flat out the fastest shift speeds available today, dual clutch transmissions do not have an equal and are simply on their own level.