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    • What happens when an ESS-Tuning VT3-700 supercharged built S65 motor DCT E92 M3 runs into a stock internal M156 Weistec Stage III supercharged C63? It loses

      This was a race many of you were waiting to see, a "built" motor supercharged DCT M3 versus a Stage III supercharged C63 AMG. The C63 AMG is the new W204 Black Series whose M156 V8 features stronger forged internals than the standard M156 in regular C63 AMG's that do not have the optional P31 performance package. At about 11 psi of boost on a 91 octane tune for the AMG power is in the upper 600 wheel horsepower range and would be higher with a race gas tune.


      The E92 M3 features an ESS Tuning VT3 built motor setup with power in the mid 600 wheel range on race gas. Unfortunately, this is a very weak example of a built motor M3 due to the block not being sleeved. It is simply a stock block with a dropped compression ratio for longevity purposes which prevents "accidents" from happening on the stock internals. It really does not offer much of a power benefit over a stock internal car as the compression ratio drop means more air needs to be compressed to make up for the lost power per psi of boost.

      It uses the exact same Vortech blower as the standard ESS kits which is undersized for a true built motor setup. A properly built low compression M3 with a properly sized blower should not lose to a stock internal M156 on a 91 octane and should not be in the 6XX wheel horsepower range. Regardless, what happened is what happened and the Weistec Stage III setups continue to impress as this C63 beats "the best" ESS has to offer and has been seen simply walking away from some very quick cars. Much respect to Wesitec on their build and checking egos, video below.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS S3 E92 M3 vs Weistec S3 C63 BS started by SleepersOwn View original post
      Comments 85 Comments
      1. Weistec's Avatar
        Weistec -
        The only real difference is the piston. The P31 piston is stronger and lighter, however the problem is never the piston breaking from a point of weak material in the non-P31. The ring gap is very tight and you get binding if you start increasing boost and making big power. It binds to the point that it almost digs into the bore and it rips the ring lands off the piston. P31 or not you will have this issue.

        The rods are identical. The crankshaft on the P31 is 5.5 lbs lighter as well.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I don't think the forged internals are anything more than marketing. I haven't seen any non P31 M156's have the rotating assembly let go and there are lots out there with high mileage - so longevity is a non issue. Under mild boost it might be a different story, and I'd agree running big boost you'd be better off with a forged bottom end. I drove a P31 C63 and it didn't even rev any faster than a non P31. So for the average buyer who will never run a supercharger, I don't see the advantage at all.
        I don't really see how stronger internals are marketing, it's a major physical difference. It's always better to have stronger than weaker especially when going well past 700 horses.

        I think the average buyer won't tune period anyway. But... for people like us it's nice to have.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Weistec Click here to enlarge
        The only real difference is the piston. The P31 piston is stronger and lighter, however the problem is never the piston breaking from a point of weak material in the non-P31. The ring gap is very tight and you get binding if you start increasing boost and making big power. It binds to the point that it almost digs into the bore and it rips the ring lands off the piston. P31 or not you will have this issue.

        The rods are identical. The crankshaft on the P31 is 5.5 lbs lighter as well.
        Thanks for clarifying. Completely forgot about the crank, nice bonus.
      1. 335toZ06's Avatar
        335toZ06 -
        Race isn't happening Click here to enlarge
      1. WedgePerformance's Avatar
        WedgePerformance -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's a faster car, sorry, blah blah blah.
        Yeah. I know it is, but I feel better knowing he got into it before the cone.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        Yeah. I know it is, but I feel better knowing he got into it before the cone.
        He whatever anyone needs to tell themselves. Hopefully a rematch can take place.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335toZ06 Click here to enlarge
        Race isn't happening Click here to enlarge
        Guessing this is you Bodnar? Yea, Morristown BMW decided not to give me car back when it went in for the battery cable recall service
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't really see how stronger internals are marketing, it's a major physical difference. It's always better to have stronger than weaker especially when going well past 700 horses.

        I think the average buyer won't tune period anyway. But... for people like us it's nice to have.
        I guess in my mind, they market it in a way that leads you to believe that it's necessary to have forged pistons and crank for the added hp from the hotter factory tune - which we know is not the case. It's proven you can run a $#@!load more power with a blower in the non P31 motor and it holds together fine. So IMO it's a waste of money when you can get a better aftermarket tune that makes more power.
        The only thing I like about the PP is the limited slip. Other than that, I don't feel it's worth it. But then again my friends call me the cheapest rich guy they've ever met lol.
      1. 335toZ06's Avatar
        335toZ06 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Guessing this is you Bodnar? Yea, Morristown BMW decided not to give me car back when it went in for the battery cable recall service
        Yes. Just request Chris P to work on your car. He had a modded 335i when they first came out and knows a lot about 335i. That's who I had double check over my 335i when I owned it on the side after hours.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335toZ06 Click here to enlarge
        Yes. Just request Chris P to work on your car. He had a modded 335i when they first came out and knows a lot about 335i. That's who I had double check over my 335i when I owned it on the side after hours.
        Click here to enlarge Good to know since I'm actually still on the BMW Maintenance Package. Luckily Morristown BMW has never complained or given me any trouble about my car (I always uninstall the tune beforehand).
      1. 335toZ06's Avatar
        335toZ06 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Click here to enlarge Good to know since I'm actually still on the BMW Maintenance Package. Luckily Morristown BMW has never complained or given me any trouble about my car (I always uninstall the tune beforehand).
        Yep. If you want his number let me know or text me before you bring it in and I'll let him know and he wouldn't say anything about a tune or mod's etc. Or if you run out of warranty and need someone to do stuff on the side and after hours he charges way less.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335toZ06 Click here to enlarge
        Yep. If you want his number let me know or text me before you bring it in and I'll let him know and he wouldn't say anything about a tune or mod's etc. Or if you run out of warranty and need someone to do stuff on the side and after hours he charges way less.
        Thanks, sure it's a matter of time until I need something pricey replaced & I'll take you up on that offer
      1. 335toZ06's Avatar
        335toZ06 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Thanks, sure it's a matter of time until I need something pricey replaced & I'll take you up on that offer
        No problem. Good night.
      1. Sledgehammer's Avatar
        Sledgehammer -
        Ohh local runs... Vette should be home tomorrow night if not Sunday night may work. Heading out of town Fri and Sat but would love to see some runs.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        I guess in my mind, they market it in a way that leads you to believe that it's necessary to have forged pistons and crank for the added hp from the hotter factory tune - which we know is not the case. It's proven you can run a $#@!load more power with a blower in the non P31 motor and it holds together fine. So IMO it's a waste of money when you can get a better aftermarket tune that makes more power.
        The only thing I like about the PP is the limited slip. Other than that, I don't feel it's worth it. But then again my friends call me the cheapest rich guy they've ever met lol.
        Of course the car can add a certain % of power on cast internals but Mercedes is going above and beyond offering stronger internals AND a more aggressive tune. They aren't just giving you software and calling it a day, I respect that tremendously.

        IMO it isn't a waste of money. If it was me, I'd get a Black Series or P31 and call up Weistec for a 3.0 liter blower with an aggressive tune. And I'd be much more comfortable knowing my internals were built to a higher level.
      1. onisyndicate's Avatar
        onisyndicate -
        I would really like to see a 135i or 335i with the Vargas Turbo upgrade to run against Weistec Stage 3 supercharge c63. A lighter car with more HP and torque, I think it would be close.
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onisyndicate Click here to enlarge
        I would really like to see a 135i or 335i with the Vargas Turbo upgrade to run against Weistec Stage 3 supercharge c63. A lighter car with more HP and torque, I think it would be close.
        I would love to see it as well but don't forget the 725whp was made with 109 octane and meth .. The c63 BS made ~660whp with a medium pulley and a pump tune and was later revealed the 660whp was a sand bagged number so add in a big dog pulley and 109 race tune id think you'd be right there with the Vargas Car and with MUCH more power under the curve your only getting 725 from the vargas for a small rpm sample so a dig race would favor the twin screws instant off idle torque
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        91 octane pump tune as well not 93
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        The c63 BS made ~660whp with a medium pulley and a pump tune and was later revealed the 660whp was a sand bagged number
        How was the Weistec C63 BS number sandbagged? It was the 91 octane tune/pulley combo, Stage 3 which is listed at 769 / 667 right on Weistec's website
      1. dreikraft's Avatar
        dreikraft -
        regarding the benz jumping the cone.... this isn't a typical roll on road race. last SS event they staged us from the taxi and then rolled out making a sweeping right onto the airstrip=bad idea. i noticed this time they staged everyone properly at THE END OF THE RUNWAY, inline, facing forwards. this makes it much easier to match the other cars speed, brake boost, etc. and get a more objective race in. that being said... its up to the drivers if they want a fair race. i had a 6466supra try and hit early on me first time out to coalinga and adjusted speed Prior to cones