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    • The "M" motor is officially dead, no more unique/ground up M engines - BMW confirms all future M (S series) motors to be based on motors already in production

      So you know that awesome BMW S85 V10 revving over 8000 rpm giving somewhat of a direct link to the Motorsport division that seemed equally at home in an Italian exotic as it did under the hood of a BMW sport sedan? Yep, that one with the individual throttle bodies, over 100 horses per liter, that won all those awards, and that you could not get anything like it in a 550i, 545i, 535i, 530i, 528, or 525i? You know, a real unique M motor made specifically for an M car and only available in an M car? Say goodbye to ever seeing that again.


      From now on, every M motor will simply be based on an engine already in production. That means whatever cylinder count and block is already available in a chassis is all you will ever get standard model or M model be damned. The M purist has been moaning about this for years that BMW M motors will essentially just become their standard counterparts with some different software but the head of BMW M (Friedrich Nitschke) finally officially confirmed the days of the unique M motor built from the ground up by the M division are quite simply, over:


      So the engines will be closer to the standard engines. We already see that in the N63/S63 motors a good example being the X5 50i and X5 M. For BMW this means huge cost savings and that certain internal parts do not even need to be changed. For example, the same pistons can be used for both an M and non-M motor now:


      This is obviously a cost saving measure. BMW can share blocks, internals, and change software yet charge a huge premium. They can even offer performance software as a quick cash grab without having to change any hardware. The cost for the consumer doesn't become more affordable (M models are actually getting more expensive) but the profit margin for BMW increases. You get less, both for your dollar and in hardware choices, yet they make more. Hey, BimmerBoost tried to warn you.

      So don't expect to see anything made by the M-Division like an S54 ever again. Or an S38. Or an S65. Or an S85. Or an S14. Those are not motors you can just slap different software on and simply call M engines. The M division is officially dead kids along with BMW's pride, get it through your heads.

      This information all comes from an intereview by Car and Driver with head of M Friedrich Nitschke. It's quite amusing to see him believe the garbage he is spewing to Car and Driver. Some great lines to read:




      The M5 and M6 are on a level with the competition weight wise? All wheel drive is too heavy? The competition has all wheel drive and weighs the same as BMW with rear wheel drive if not slightly less. A recent comparison of convertible GT's had the F12 BMW M6 come in last place because of poor driving dynamics and the heaviest curb weight by far with the car not offering much more than straightline acceleration.

      What the hell is Nitschke talking about?

      Game over kids, BMW M has buried their heads so far in the sand they can't smell their own BS.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: The "M" motor is officially dead, no more unique/ground up M engines - BMW confirms all future M (S series) motors to be based on motors already in production started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 181 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        It has the 4.4 liter engine from the GTS (reason enough to dismiss your theory on anything cars), and a BUNCH of other things that do not come on the standard M3 (titanium exhaust, much better brakes, independent rear seats, etc.) - but yeah, just a few carbon pieces for an outrageous price.
        This guy has no idea what he is talking about. He is more impressed with an M car without an M motor than the best M car to be made.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        Unfortunately, yes. The 30hp more don't make a real difference,
        Oh this is comedy, the HP and torque make no difference eh? In a lighter car? With a lower torque peak too? Stop talking.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        And yes, the M3 GTS costs double the price of a normal M3 and only offers a marginally better performance, unfortunately. And far less performance than cars in the same price range.
        It is an exlusive car built to take the M3 to the next level. It gets more and more expensive to lighten it, extract power, reprogram, change the brakes, etc. How much does a GT3 cost versus a Carrera? Is that worth it? Is it marginally better performance?

        Stop talking, you have no idea what you're saying.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Also, a CRT - again - has a GTS engine in it. It's not 30 horsepower - you are looking a PEAK POWER again. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand. It's TOTAL AREA under the power curve.
        Yep, I'm the one with reading comprehension issues. Yep, must be me.

        Marginal? They gave it a 4.4 liter... marginal. Yeah... marginal.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Here is the "small difference" between both cars:

        CRT is 1.2 SECONDS faster to 120 MPH; .8 seconds faster to 124 MPH - around Hockenheim, 1.13,6 min - stock M3 is 1:15.20 - that's not a "small" difference by any means.

        It's kinda like the "small difference" between the 335i and M3 to 100 MPH that you just couldn't understand in relation to torque. I am sure you will just reply back saying "no no, you got it all wrong, you can't read, you are an elitist". However, I just can't stand it when people talk out of their ass, people correct them - they don't say "oh, my misunderstanding" - then continue to spew absolute BULL$#@! all over this forum.

        You SAID the CRT WAS JUST A BUNCH OF CARBON FIBER PARTS "slapped" on the M3. This was not true, but you continue to make it look like nothing you said was wrong, so I will continue to make you look like a jagmaster, because that's what you are acting like.

        It's fine to agree or not agree on a forum, however - this is a whole different level... You say things that are completely made up - and then wait until someone replies, then "forget" to address everything you said wrong.
        Well at least I was spared some time having to re-iterate all of this.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        I'm not backtracking at all. I don't know where you get this idea - apparently your reading skills are quite lacking.
        He just quoted where your reading skills are lacking. As in, supported it with a quote. You saying others can't read doesn't change the fact your statements show you are having definite comprehension issues. You can type whatever you like it won't change that.

        Yeah.. the M3 GTS is just a car with some carbon fiber slapped on it and a roll cage. What is more accurate though is taht the 1M is just a 1 series with a bodykit and some M3 pieces.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        I never mentioned any 0-100mph figures. Then why do you bring this up? I don't care about 0-100mph figures.
        It was brought up because you said the difference is marginal. Now all of a sudden you don't care about the real world figures, unbelievable.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        If you want a car with good 0-100 mph figures, you'd never buy an M3 GTS. The car isn't conceived for this at all. If you haven't understood this, then better stop posting about it because then you really don't understand anything. Sad, but true.
        You are changing the subject and backtracking after looking foolish. You said 30 hp doesn't matter. Well, clearly it does. Nobody is claiming the car is a dragster. Using figures to support the difference the 4.4 liter motor provides is sad to you? Um, I find it sad you can't just admit you were wrong.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        Putting natural aspirated cars on some kind of adulating pedestal just because of their throttle response is kind of one-sided, don't you think?
        Uh, no, I don't. That's one of the greatest things about the classic M motor with individual throttles bodies that makes it seem like your foot is linked directly to the damn throttle. It's one of those things... well, that we'll never have again. But you go right on talking about emissions.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        They can make them almost 100% lagless but it is complicated and expensive: http://jalopnik.com/5855317/will-bmw...-end-turbo-lag
        We'll have electric cars from BMW before they ever eliminate turbo lag.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Oh this is comedy, the HP and torque make no difference eh? In a lighter car? With a lower torque peak too? Stop talking. It is an exlusive car built to take the M3 to the next level. It gets more and more expensive to lighten it, extract power, reprogram, change the brakes, etc. How much does a GT3 cost versus a Carrera? Is that worth it? Is it marginally better performance? Stop talking, you have no idea what you're saying.
        The GTS weighs 1530 kg. You get to that weight just by removing the rear seats and putting in bucket seats. Hardly an effort and ridiculous compared to a Gt3RS which weighs a bit less than 1400kgs. That's a HUGE difference on a racetrack and one of the main reasons the GTS gets eaten on the track by the RS. Sorry but the price is FAR from being justified.On the E46 CSL they changed suspension parts, cams, airbox, body panels, seats, interior, CF roof etc etc. It's 200kgs lighter, almost feels like a completely new car. For only like 10k Euro more. Not doubling the price... THAT's what M should be about. And that's why people are all over the 1M. The same spirit featuring an affordable and fun car!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        The GTS weighs 1530 kg. You get to that weight just by removing the rear seats and putting in bucket seats. Hardly an effort and ridiculous compared to a Gt3RS which weighs a bit less than 1400kgs. That's a HUGE difference on a racetrack and one of the main reasons the GTS gets eaten on the track by the RS. Sorry but the price is FAR from being justified.On the E46 CSL they changed suspension parts, cams, airbox, body panels, seats, interior, CF roof etc etc. It's 200kgs lighter, almost feels like a completely new car. For only like 10k Euro more. Not doubling the price... THAT's what M should be about. And that's why people are all over the 1M. The same spirit featuring an affordable and fun car!
        Hardly a huge effort? Did you see everything I listed?

        It weighs 3278 pounds WITH a roll cage and fire extinguisher in it. Are you kidding me?

        The GTS weighs ~1490 kg don't know where you are getting your figures. That's 300 pounds less than the standard car. That doesn't impress you? Seriously? 300 pounds you get that by removing the rear seats and putting in bucked seats? On which planets gravitational pull are you basing this on?

        The GTS is an excellent car that is much stronger than the standard M3 and the strongest M car for the track. That is the point of it plus an exclusive car that is a limited edition for true M fans.

        The CSL wasn't cheap either.

        The 1M is just a 135i with a body kit and M3 suspension pieces. It isn't an M3 GTS, it isn't comparable, not even close. One is the M division pushing their best product further and the other is just slapping an M badge on what they already have and calling it a day.
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        We'll have electric cars from BMW before they ever eliminate turbo lag.
        They already have electric bmws...infact I see one around town and plugged in at the airport all the time.
      1. StinkyM's Avatar
        StinkyM -
        So, just because the Z4M has the S54 and is quite similar to the 3.0si; does that mean it's not an M car? All it has is the S54. There's more to it than strapping parts to make them an M car sticky. Quoting lightning lap times, the 1M coupe does it in 3:06.6 and the 135i in 3:13.7. That's a huge difference using the same engine, different brakes, larger tires, wheels, etc. 7 seconds to me, means huge improvement, which also means to me, it's an M car. M cars are not and have not always been just about the engine. It's the total package that makes them phenominal.

        Let's also talk about the 6 second difference between the F13 M6 and the E62 M6. 6 second difference. That is an M car sticky. That shows huge improvement over the previous years. It may not be the fastest in its segment, but it delivers the best overall experience.

        I quoted these times because M cars homes should be on the track. We never got the 2.3l Evo in the E30, none of the Euro E36's, not the CSL, and definitely not the GTS nor the CRT. So what, they were all ridiculously expensive, and more than likely no one here would own one. Where's all the people here with M3 LTW's? Hm sure is a whole lot of those left around sitting in garages collecting dust. That was the last chance we had to own lightweight cars and they did generate not nearly enough revenue nor interest. That's why there is no GTS, CSL, etc etc. The amount of testing for crashes and emissions is ridiculous. It's the same reason the Skylines are not legally imported here. No one will step up and pay the major costs to make them compliant.
      1. dreikraft's Avatar
        dreikraft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
        So, just because the Z4M has the S54 and is quite similar to the 3.0si; does that mean it's not an M car? All it has is the S54. There's more to it than strapping parts to make them an M car sticky. Quoting lightning lap times, the 1M coupe does it in 3:06.6 and the 135i in 3:13.7. That's a huge difference using the same engine, different brakes, larger tires, wheels, etc. 7 seconds to me, means huge improvement, which also means to me, it's an M car. M cars are not and have not always been just about the engine. It's the total package that makes them phenominal.

        Let's also talk about the 6 second difference between the F13 M6 and the E62 M6. 6 second difference. That is an M car sticky. That shows huge improvement over the previous years. It may not be the fastest in its segment, but it delivers the best overall experience.

        I quoted these times because M cars homes should be on the track. We never got the 2.3l Evo in the E30, none of the Euro E36's, not the CSL, and definitely not the GTS nor the CRT. So what, they were all ridiculously expensive, and more than likely no one here would own one. Where's all the people here with M3 LTW's? Hm sure is a whole lot of those left around sitting in garages collecting dust. That was the last chance we had to own lightweight cars and they did generate not nearly enough revenue nor interest. That's why there is no GTS, CSL, etc etc. The amount of testing for crashes and emissions is ridiculous. It's the same reason the Skylines are not legally imported here. No one will step up and pay the major costs to make them compliant.
        there are ways around this... we have two countries that border us who don't care and several hillbilly states that dunno $#@! when it comes to registration. and inevitably time is on our side when it comes to importing. it all comes down to how bad you want it. legal? kinda grey? yes!
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        EXACTLY.

        And the Corvette, Z06, Viper, Challenger, Charger, Jeep SRT-8, Mustang GT, Boss 302, etc. Let's stop making excuses for BMW.
        None of these cars are made in EU and have to meet the EU manufacturer fleet requirements.
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        The fleet average to be achieved by new cars is 130 grams of CO2 per kilometre (g/km) by 2015 and 95g/km by 2020. The EU fleet average target of 130g CO2 per km will be phased in between 2012 and 2015. In 2012, an average of 65% of each manufacturer's newly registered cars must comply with the limit value curve set by the legislation. This will rise to 75% in 2013, 80% in 2014 and 100% in 2015. So poease don't look at the cars that were released last year or this year. These limits get a lot more difficult each year.

        Moreover, due to the CO2 based taxation in many countries the customers need to get more and more efficient cars in order to be able to afford M3, i.e. hoping it to be less than $250 000 with all the CO2 taxes. This is not really a matter of choice. You will see that practicaclly all the cars will be either electric or turbocharged. Audi and Merdedes must follow the same way, there is no way around it.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
        The fleet average to be achieved by new cars is 130 grams of CO2 per kilometre (g/km) by 2015 and 95g/km by 2020. The EU fleet average target of 130g CO2 per km will be phased in between 2012 and 2015. In 2012, an average of 65% of each manufacturer's newly registered cars must comply with the limit value curve set by the legislation. This will rise to 75% in 2013, 80% in 2014 and 100% in 2015. So poease don't look at the cars that were released last year or this year. These limits get a lot more difficult each year.

        Moreover, due to the CO2 based taxation in many countries the customers need to get more and more efficient cars in order to be able to afford M3, i.e. hoping it to be less than $250 000 with all the CO2 taxes. This is not really a matter of choice. You will see that practicaclly all the cars will be either electric or turbocharged. Audi and Merdedes must follow the same way, there is no way around it.
        Yes - that's the thing though... It's fleet average - so they can offset. Like - in other words, they can make one car that's a sports car with "bad" emissions, and offset with another car (maybe electric).

        Point is, there is no reason we can't have a V8 or V10 car in the future; I think this part is misunderstood.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
        The fleet average to be achieved by new cars is 130 grams of CO2 per kilometre (g/km) by 2015 and 95g/km by 2020. The EU fleet average target of 130g CO2 per km will be phased in between 2012 and 2015. In 2012, an average of 65% of each manufacturer's newly registered cars must comply with the limit value curve set by the legislation. This will rise to 75% in 2013, 80% in 2014 and 100% in 2015. So poease don't look at the cars that were released last year or this year. These limits get a lot more difficult each year.

        Moreover, due to the CO2 based taxation in many countries the customers need to get more and more efficient cars in order to be able to afford M3, i.e. hoping it to be less than $250 000 with all the CO2 taxes. This is not really a matter of choice. You will see that practicaclly all the cars will be either electric or turbocharged. Audi and Merdedes must follow the same way, there is no way around it.
        Bloody hell! In China the factories dump their $#@! into the atmosphere without filters but we will soon be forced to drive a Prius!! But no-one dares to put pressure on China since their industry is now the motor of the world economy, as we are stuck in recession.

        Salvaged cars from Europe are shipped to Africa by thousands, where they will continue to pollute the atmosphere. "Aus den Augen, aus dem Sinn" as a german saying goes...

        I agree that everyone has to contribute their part to preserve our planet, but at times it gets ridiculous!
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Yes - that's the thing though... It's fleet average - so they can offset. Like - in other words, they can make one car that's a sports car with "bad" emissions, and offset with another car (maybe electric).

        Point is, there is no reason we can't have a V8 or V10 car in the future; I think this part is misunderstood.
        In theory yes, but in practice it is impossible to develop a lot of electric car models for which there is no real market anyways. Currently Bmw has only one combustion model that meets the 2020 target. Each model has a long way to go to meet the fleet target.

        Edit: sorry, correction: none of the models meets the 95g as the lowest is 99g.
      1. RTA's Avatar
        RTA -
        That is right... A NA V8-V10 can be done but is also within the EU less attractive as high emission engines affect the road taxes big time.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
        They already have electric bmws...infact I see one around town and plugged in at the airport all the time.
        Yes they have an electric 1-Series so yep, there's how they will eliminate turbo lag... with an electric motor.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
        So, just because the Z4M has the S54 and is quite similar to the 3.0si; does that mean it's not an M car? All it has is the S54. There's more to it than strapping parts to make them an M car sticky. Quoting lightning lap times, the 1M coupe does it in 3:06.6 and the 135i in 3:13.7. That's a huge difference using the same engine, different brakes, larger tires, wheels, etc. 7 seconds to me, means huge improvement, which also means to me, it's an M car. M cars are not and have not always been just about the engine. It's the total package that makes them phenominal.

        Let's also talk about the 6 second difference between the F13 M6 and the E62 M6. 6 second difference. That is an M car sticky. That shows huge improvement over the previous years. It may not be the fastest in its segment, but it delivers the best overall experience.

        I quoted these times because M cars homes should be on the track. We never got the 2.3l Evo in the E30, none of the Euro E36's, not the CSL, and definitely not the GTS nor the CRT. So what, they were all ridiculously expensive, and more than likely no one here would own one. Where's all the people here with M3 LTW's? Hm sure is a whole lot of those left around sitting in garages collecting dust. That was the last chance we had to own lightweight cars and they did generate not nearly enough revenue nor interest. That's why there is no GTS, CSL, etc etc. The amount of testing for crashes and emissions is ridiculous. It's the same reason the Skylines are not legally imported here. No one will step up and pay the major costs to make them compliant.
        The Z4M has the S54 and is an M car. The Z4M example makes no sense to me nobody has ever questioned whether it is an M car.

        You can take basically anything and improve the suspension, tires, brakes, give it a tune, and improve the laptime. So what?

        The F13 M6 and E63 M6 differ mostly due to power. The new M6 isn't some amazing handling machine, it's still a boat. Just a boat that limps home now after a track session.

        Regarding the CSL and GTS, our pricing would be less as it always is. We don't have taxes included in the price. Mercedes imports their Black Series cars. BMW could import the CSL and GTS, they just are cheap and don't care.