• No 4Matic all wheel drive W205 C63 (C55)? AMG responds to the BMW M3/M4 weight loss with rear wheel drive C63 AMG

      Interesting development here coming out of the North American International Auto show in Detroit. Various sources are all reporting the same news that the head of AMG Tobias Moers stated the W205 C63 AMG would be rear wheel drive. Why is this interesting? Well the new 2014 W205 C300 and C400 are 4Matic only in the USA. There is no rear wheel drive W205 C-Class model for sale in the United States (although rear wheel drive models apparently will come for the next model year) and the E63 AMG and CLS63 along with the entry level 45 AMG are also sold in the USA as 4Matic only.

      At the end of last month reports surface that the W205 C63 also would not get a dual clutch transmission. This would make a lot of sense if the vehicle was all wheel drive as Mercedes would likely have the same torque concerns they do (and Audi as well) with sending a good amount of V8 twin turbo torque through a dual clutch transmission to all four wheels. We already know the engine is a 4.0 liter M177 V8 but the V8 twin turbo was confirmed with Tobias Moers on record. This motor also means the C55 name may be coming back since the motor will not be shared with the 63 AMG's.

      So why no all wheel drive? The first reason is likely the weight. The CLS63 AMG and E63 AMG both perform very well with all wheel drive but they are about 130 pounds heavier than their rear wheel drive counterparts. That is a significant amount of weight especially with most of it coming over the front wheels and especially with the main rival from BMW (M3/M4) coming in at 3306 pounds.

      With such a relatively low curb weight Mercedes would simply not be able to get close including all wheel drive, a twin turbo V8, and an automatic transmission. This despite the C-Class targeting weight savings of up to 220 pounds. Those 220 pounds though were not stated as to on what engine model, transmission, or driveline only as a maximum weight loss figure. Mercedes likely omitted specifying the weight savings in comparison to what previous model so that we would not be able to figure out the curb weight before they announced it. Not to mention they are still working on the C63.

      It is a foregone conclusion that if the C63 had 4Matic it would not be as playful as a chassis as the M3 and would be prone to far more understeer. Mercedes seems intent on making the C63 more of a drivers car and will include the trick electronic differential from the SLS Black Series. That means the C63 should be more capable of competing with the M3 in balance and driving excitement.

      Tobias Moers agrees stating, "You can have a lot of fun with the car on track with our 4Matic system, but I think the C-Class is more dedicated to fun-to-drive, more sporty, more race track--sometimes a little more sideways. That's the reason it's a rear-wheel drive car."

      This also begs the question, if rear wheel drive why no dual clutch transmission? Perhaps the answer is Mercedes upping the torque significantly once the M3/M4 specs were released. This is the danger in BMW releasing their next generation numbers before Mercedes. Due to the turbo era however it is not the risk it used to be as BMW will simply offer a performance package option if they need to. Then Mercedes will likely fire back with their own. They both win as they both will make more money on the option which they are well aware of.

      Additionally, it is important to note Tobias Moers did not state there never would be an all wheel drive C63. Will one come later as it did with the E63 refresh? Will they bump the power and do a C63 AMG S? Who knows, but the C63 just became a much more substantial rival for the M3. With approximately 130 less pounds to carry around than if it had the 4Matic system, it may just get close the CLA45 AMG's curb weight of 3600 pounds. It is practically a certainty it will be lighter than the W204 C63 AMG 3992 pounds. If Mercedes does lighten it by 220 pounds as they claim have been able to with the W205, that gives us 3772 pounds. We will have to wait and see.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Next C63 Confirmed RWD started by BlackJetE90OC View original post
      Comments 57 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        That 98 hp difference is made up in spades by the brilliant dct in the S6 not to mention how much more efficient it is and the fact that it has a torque vectoring sports differential out back. You can say what you want about which models are competition for one another but the fact is the S6 is a better car for less.
        I not debating the quality of the S6. I'm specifically discussing what is competition for what. The S6 may be great, but it isn't the E63 AMG rival from Audi.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        If the Audi RS models are a direct competitor for the amg's, and the S6 competes with the E550, then what's the competition for the A6??
        I specified that above already.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        if you think that is accurate then go drive an E550 and an S6 back to back and then come back and tell me which one you would rather have.
        Once again I have no doubt the S6 is a great car but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The M3 sedan drives better than an S600. Does that make them rivals in the same class somehow?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        Because the E550 is a fat pig luxury cruiser and the S6 will trounce it in every way...starting with the gorgeous diamond stitched seats and ending with the superior more driver focused chassis. Comparing the two is nothing short of ignorant.
        Ok I'm glad we established we have S6 fans. I still don't see how this changes my point or how it makes the S6 the 63 AMG competitor.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Ok I'm glad we established we have S6 fans. I still don't see how this changes my point or how it makes the S6 the 63 AMG competitor.
        We're not "fans" of anything. We recognize the car for what it is......a E63 competitor with a better transmission for $70k.
        End of story.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        We're not "fans" of anything. We recognize the car for what it is......a E63 competitor with a better transmission for $70k.
        End of story.
        It's not the E63 competitor. Reference the article you linked me to me if you need to.

        End of story.
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        This is really cut and dry don't understand how people don't get this. Had an argument with a guy yesterday that said his s5 was in the same class and better than the m3 according to him because he supposedly beat one of the highway ... I tried to beat into his head that the s5 is in the same class as a 335i Msport and that's why the rs5 was made to compete with the m3 then he told me how much better the s5 was than the rs5 ... Guess he should be the CEO of vw he really knows his stuff ....

        the s6 does not compete with the e63 period you can't compare a tuned s6 to a stock e63 because we know if you tune the e63 you'll see over 130mph trap speeds and it would kill the Audi. The RS line competes with AMG and M period no matter what your opinion of the better value. Audi will release a RS Plus package to compete with the AMG PP Package and BMW M Competition Package .. See the correlation here???

        Black series is on another level and what makes AMG the leader for true car nuts. As sticky stated they are track focused cars with drivability second. The only thing BMW has is the m3 gts which was very limited in numbers while AMG has had multiple cars with a halo sls black series that you can only compare to an Audi r8 v10 plus.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        This is really cut and dry don't understand how people don't get this. Had an argument with a guy yesterday that said his s5 was in the same class and better than the m3 according to him because he supposedly beat one of the highway ... I tried to beat into his head that the s5 is in the same class as a 335i Msport and that's why the rs5 was made to compete with the m3 then he told me how much better the s5 was than the rs5 ... Guess he should be the CEO of vw he really knows his stuff ....

        the s6 does not compete with the e63 period you can't compare a tuned s6 to a stock e63 because we know if you tune the e63 you'll see over 130mph trap speeds and it would kill the Audi. The RS line competes with AMG and M period no matter what your opinion of the better value. Audi will release a RS Plus package to compete with the AMG PP Package and BMW M Competition Package .. See the correlation here???

        Black series is on another level and what makes AMG the leader for true car nuts. As sticky stated they are track focused cars with drivability second. The only thing BMW has is the m3 gts which was very limited in numbers while AMG has had multiple cars with a halo sls black series that you can only compare to an Audi r8 v10 plus.
        Makes perfect logical sense to me.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        This is really cut and dry don't understand how people don't get this. Had an argument with a guy yesterday that said his s5 was in the same class and better than the m3 according to him because he supposedly beat one of the highway ... I tried to beat into his head that the s5 is in the same class as a 335i Msport and that's why the rs5 was made to compete with the m3 then he told me how much better the s5 was than the rs5 ... Guess he should be the CEO of vw he really knows his stuff ....

        the s6 does not compete with the e63 period you can't compare a tuned s6 to a stock e63 because we know if you tune the e63 you'll see over 130mph trap speeds and it would kill the Audi. The RS line competes with AMG and M period no matter what your opinion of the better value. Audi will release a RS Plus package to compete with the AMG PP Package and BMW M Competition Package .. See the correlation here???

        Black series is on another level and what makes AMG the leader for true car nuts. As sticky stated they are track focused cars with drivability second. The only thing BMW has is the m3 gts which was very limited in numbers while AMG has had multiple cars with a halo sls black series that you can only compare to an Audi r8 v10 plus.

        No matter how much you and Sticky flap your jaws, it doesn't change the fact that the S6 competes with the E63, stock vs stock.
        In addition, many feel that the S6's DCT, lower curb weight, and MSRP make it MORE desirable than the E63.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        No matter how much you and Sticky flap your jaws, it doesn't change the fact that the S6 competes with the E63, stock vs stock.
        That does not make it Audi's competitor to the E63. The A6 competes with the E63 then too. You can say anything competes with it by your definition.

        I like how you are saying stock for stock now after saying tuned.

        We honestly understand the S6 is a great car and can compete with other cars. It's not the E63 competitor though.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        In addition, many feel that the S6's DCT, lower curb weight, and MSRP make it MORE desirable than the E63.
        I find the Aventador's styling and V12 make it more desirable than the E63 AMG.
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        No matter how much you and Sticky flap your jaws, it doesn't change the fact that the S6 competes with the E63, stock vs stock.
        In addition, many feel that the S6's DCT, lower curb weight, and MSRP make it MORE desirable than the E63.
        Yupp your right that's why AMG is releasing the e75 with a 7.5 liter quad turbo V8 with a TCT triple clutch transmission / AWD to fulfill your big displacement/ turbo daily driver needs and compete with the rs6/7
      1. ezec63's Avatar
        ezec63 -
        Download the spec sheet from the link you posted on the s6 vs m5 vs E63. The s6 trapped 115 the e63 trapped 124 that's almost 10 mph a HUGE difference in top end and you know it. The Audi weighed in at 4255 while the e63 weighed in at 4233 without the ceramic brake option.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        I really don't think any more time even needs to be spent on this.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Well, Car&Driver and a lot of other people think the S6 won that comparison and is better choice over the E63.
        If that doesn't make the S6 a E63 competitor, I don't know what does.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
        Download the spec sheet from the link you posted on the s6 vs m5 vs E63. The s6 trapped 115 the e63 trapped 124 that's almost 10 mph a HUGE difference in top end and you know it. The Audi weighed in at 4255 while the e63 weighed in at 4233 without the ceramic brake option.
        Thanks for telling me something I already knew.
        Now, use your brain and make an "apples to apples" comparison.
        Compare the weight of the ALL WHEEL DRIVE S6 versus the ALL WHEEL DRIVE E63.

        My point stands.
        Based on the S6's better transmission, lower curb weight, and significantly lower MSRP, many people consider the S6 to not only be a E63 competitor, but the S6 as the better choice.


        Getting back on topic:
        If the w205 C63 gets DCT, AWD, and a twin turbo V8 it will be the best buy with the existing MSRP.
        If it doesn't get all of the above while maintaining the existing MSRP, I think the S6 is the better buy.
        You can disagree, but MANY people feel the way I do and you can't say I'm wrong.

        To appease the E63 fan boys: If the E63 gets a DCT, I think it will be the best daily driver on the road. Although, the C63 will always be significantly lighter weight and cheaper.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Well, Car&Driver and a lot of other people think the S6 won that comparison and is better choice over the E63.
        Over an E63 that doesn't even exist in the lineup any longer? Good point.
      1. TT C6's Avatar
        TT C6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Over an E63 that doesn't even exist in the lineup any longer? Good point.

        Your reading comprehension is so bad, I can respond to your post by repeating myself.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Thanks for telling me something I already knew.
        Now, use your brain and make an "apples to apples" comparison.
        Compare the weight of the ALL WHEEL DRIVE S6 versus the ALL WHEEL DRIVE E63.
        .
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TT C6 Click here to enlarge
        Your reading comprehension is so bad, I can respond to your post by repeating myself.
        The problem isn't my reading comprehension it's more your comprehension in general.

        If you want to delude yourself into believing the E63 and the S6 are competitors go nuts.
      1. BK63AMG's Avatar
        BK63AMG -
        As far as I've always understood it, Audi's RS models are direct competitors to AMG and M...S cars have always been the stop gap between base model and RS high performance. Althought the S6 is certainly a fast car and all around performer, despite the S6's similar dimensions and power train, the RS6 would be a true E63 competitor (as it is in Europe) just as the RS5 is designed to go head-to-head with the M3 and C63 coupe...and the RS4 vs the M3/C63 sedans...and the RS7 to the CLS63...etc.

        The price points of RS cars also validate this as they're more in line with AMG/M pricing.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        As the newest comparison shows the Panamera Turbo, RS7, and CLS63 AMG as they are all in the same segment and the competitors to one another. The M6 would have been included but they couldn't get a hold of one.

        It's no debate.