Close

    • First Supercharged M156 63 AMG Motor by Weistec Engineering

      Here we have a teaser video of a supercharged M156 V8 on he C63 AMG. There has been a lot of discussion of this not being possible and extremely difficult to excute. So far, it seems Weistec has been able to get the hardware down using a 2.3 liter twin screw supercharger. We do not know what boost they are running (likely somewhere in the 6-7 psi range if on pump) and we do not know the cost or even who is doing the tuning. More on this as it develops but we are glad to see this is being attempted and development is moving along.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: Supercharged M156 started by c32AMG-DTM View original post
      Comments 121 Comments
      1. GT3's Avatar
        GT3 -
        Well, at least did got the hardware done and its running. Thats impressive, from a car enthusiast point of view, no matter what. Did anyone ever get this done to this extent? I never saw a Brabus S/C C63, running, even as development.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
        Well, at least did got the hardware done and its running. Thats impressive, from a car enthusiast point of view, no matter what. Did anyone ever get this done to this extent? I never saw a Brabus S/C C63, running, even as development.
        Agreed, I am very impressed they have the hardware running. We don't have details but they have demonstrated a nice preliminary setup. You have to start somewhere, right?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        Trans: Unless they cracked the Holy Grail and I don't see that being the case, this car will $#@! a trans in the first week. It should be making an easy 525-550rwtq with that 500rwhp, BTDT with that kind of torque and the results weren't pretty. Now add to the load that PD blowers make peak boost just off idle (especially in a low boost app like this) and you have a serious recipie for disaster.
        Why is the trans such a problem? No one has this cracked in Europe?

        Assuming the trans does get cracked and it will be able to be upgraded, then on paper this would seem to be a big development and possible, correct?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
        I believe what was said was that no one has been able to figure out the software it would take to make it work. That even Brabus and their deep pockets had scratched the project! Hopefully numbers will come soon from weistec.
        Same, we need some more details.
      1. GT3's Avatar
        GT3 -
        Sticky, get Weistec on here, so they can post details and info...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
        Sticky, get Weistec on here, so they can post details and info...
        Will do, I just saw this and I am just getting over my Christmas hangover.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GT3 Click here to enlarge
        Well, at least did got the hardware done and its running. Thats impressive, from a car enthusiast point of view, no matter what. Did anyone ever get this done to this extent? I never saw a Brabus S/C C63, running, even as development.
        Yes. Actually the Brabus 63 TT ML63s did run. Again though they spent millions in development, have engineers of the highest caliber, and even had help from Bosch with the ECUs. How long it took them to drop a trans I have no idea.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why is the trans such a problem? No one has this cracked in Europe?

        Assuming the trans does get cracked and it will be able to be upgraded, then on paper this would seem to be a big development and possible, correct?
        AFAIK, there are Four 722.9 TCU tools, 3 in Europe, 1 in NJ, all 4 belong to MB/AMG and no one in the aftermarket has access to them.

        On paper this project is still a disaster because zero driveline solutions have been presented. They figured out the easy part (getting it to run/idle) as others have in the past (Brabus), now getting it to work along with the rest of the driveline (shorterm or longterm) is a different story altogether.

        Fact is we can offer upgraded engine internals now. We can also offer upgraded trans internals now however they are useless unless the software can be changed to accomodate them and the application at hand. Aside from that how many people will spend $40K upgrading the engine/trans internals/fuel system only to find out they have a tiny 2.3L blower sitting on top of the engine that then becomes the limiting factor.

        Until I see hard data telling me otherwise (and that would be a first in this instance) there are just too many problems and stipulations on the table for this to make any sense. Best case scenario this is a quiet 480-500rw solution.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        AFAIK, there are Four 722.9 TCU tools, 3 in Europe, 1 in NJ, all 4 belong to MB/AMG and no one in the aftermarket has access to them.
        This can not be duplicated or are they guarded like fort knox? Even Brabus can't get a hold of one of these? Why would MB want to hold on to this piece yet the ECU is cracked?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        On paper this project is still a disaster because zero driveline solutions have been presented. They figured out the easy part (getting it to run/idle) as others have in the past (Brabus), now getting it to work along with the rest of the driveline (shorterm or longterm) is a different story altogether.
        This is very true, we need to see the rest but it is a step. A small one from your point of view I can understand but it is a step. My question was if the driveline issues are addressed (I understand how unlikely this is) then would this be a viable option on the M156?
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This can not be duplicated or are they guarded like fort knox? Even Brabus can't get a hold of one of these? Why would MB want to hold on to this piece yet the ECU is cracked?
        Like Fort Knox.

        The OEM TCU files keep the trans from ingesting itself. It's MBs way of saying have fun, just not too much fun because the hardware we gave you for the second half of the driveline isn't up to par with the engine.


        This is very true, we need to see the rest but it is a step. A small one from your point of view I can understand but it is a step. My question was if the driveline issues are addressed (I understand how unlikely this is) then would this be a viable option on the M156?
        It's only small to me because others have been this far (and further). Getting past all the potential downfalls and things that will need to be overcome which is very hard to look past, I see this being the perfect mod for someone with cash that wants a quiet 500rwhp M156. Getting more out of the base kit will require a rather large investment of cash I don't see many in this market willing to make. Otherwise we can net the same power N/A with far greater reliability and at about half or less of the guesstimated price.

        This company is located in Irvine, CA. Has no one in CA heard of them prior?
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        I also think timing wise (along with price, cost effectiveness, etc) it's the wrong time for a base blower kit for a M156. In a few months 4.6 and 5.5L TT M157s will be everywhere with upgraded trans, fuel system, ECU, etc from the factory. We can already say with certainty the M157 will be able to deliver more HP/TQ than this blower on a M156 ever could.

        For sake of comparison for the Bimmer guys, this would be like slapping an S-Trim on a S65, just not doing it justice. However in order to do it right everything has to be redone.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        Like Fort Knox.

        The OEM TCU files keep the trans from ingesting itself. It's MBs way of saying have fun, just not too much fun because the hardware we gave you for the second half of the driveline isn't up to par with the engine.
        I can understand MB's perspective as they don't want the problem with warranty claims and we all know the 7 speed is weaker than that classic 5-speed. Maybe this will come with time?

        I just find it a bit ridiculous that I can get my DCT built, which is far more complex, and the 7-speed auto is giving MB guys problems. I realize it isn't a hardware issue but a software one but still. Why can't MB let guys void their warranty and get this cracked? This is the type of thing that holds the enthusiasts back.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        It's only small to me because others have been this far (and further). Getting past all the potential downfalls and things that will need to be overcome which is very hard to look past, I see this being the perfect mod for someone with cash that wants a quiet 500rwhp M156. Getting more out of the base kit will require a rather large investment of cash I don't see many in this market willing to make. Otherwise we can net the same power N/A with far greater reliability and at about half or less of the guesstimated price.
        Is it a torque limit that is the issue? If so, how is it not an issue for you when spraying nitrous on top of the bolt on and heads + cams packages?

        Absolutely, if that is the limit then you can match this NA. I want someone to resolve this transmission issue as the M156 with big boost would be something special.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        This company is located in Irvine, CA. Has no one in CA heard of them prior?
        Never heard of them (and I pay pretty close attention to what is going on) but I can certainly pay them a visit and check it all out.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        We can already say with certainty the M157 will be able to deliver more HP/TQ than this blower on a M156 ever could.
        What are you basing this on? Doesn't the M156 rev higher and have better heads/valvetrain?
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I can understand MB's perspective as they don't want the problem with warranty claims and we all know the 7 speed is weaker than that classic 5-speed. Maybe this will come with time?
        I doubt it. You can't even flash an ECU OBD (unless you play with the ECU first) with a 63, with only 4 tools in the world and all of them being in factory hands, I don't see it ever happening. It's not so much warranty fraud that's the issue, it's the complete and utter destruction of the transmission that would undoubtedly occur within minutes of unleashing all tq limiters in the TCU.

        I just find it a bit ridiculous that I can get my DCT built, which is far more complex, and the 7-speed auto is giving MB guys problems. I realize it isn't a hardware issue but a software one but still. Why can't MB let guys void their warranty and get this cracked? This is the type of thing that holds the enthusiasts back.
        I agree (reg your DCT). Yes it's exactly the thing that holds enthusiasts back. Fortunately for the BMW guys DCT software encryption isn't on par with the MB crap. Unfortunately for us, it is what it is.

        Is it a torque limit that is the issue? If so, how is it not an issue for you when spraying nitrous on top of the bolt on and heads + cams packages?
        It is to an extent, however we can control ramp out rate for nitrous so we have more control than someone running a blower. As far as blowing the trans, yes the torque limiters keep it in one piece and unless properly tuned to handle the extra torque they would grenade almost instantly.

        Getting a TCU file out is impossible, remapping one would be possible but would take time (who knows what maps are where in that), and getting it back in is impossible as well--unless of course you have a factory tool.

        Absolutely, if that is the limit then you can match this NA. I want someone to resolve this transmission issue as the M156 with big boost would be something special.
        There's far more that needs to be done than building the trans to see big power. Not going to happen period with that tiny blower and those uber restrictive inlets. It's a good base blower for low boost, but it's never going to compete with what the BMW tuner's offer in terms of potential. That would require a larger supercharger, built bottom end, trans, converter, and probably altogether a 75K build.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Never heard of them (and I pay pretty close attention to what is going on) but I can certainly pay them a visit and check it all out.
        That would be awesome!

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What are you basing this on? Doesn't the M156 rev higher and have better heads/valvetrain?
        Yes M156 revs higher (with FI rpm doesn't matter as much though) and has better flowing heads no question. However the M157 is fully forged, with sufficient fuel system and ECU scaling from the factory to accompany it's twin turbos. Making 600HP+ with a M157 is a tune only proposition, not so with a M156. Additionally M157s are backed by a strengthened trans that can handle the 663lb/ft the PP tune puts out and then some. The 722.9 can't and won't. The 722.9 converter is another story in and of itself.

        Basically the M157 is a much better starting point for FI performance.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        It is to an extent, however we can control ramp out rate for nitrous so we have more control than someone running a blower. As far as blowing the trans, yes the torque limiters keep it in one piece and unless properly tuned to handle the extra torque they would grenade almost instantly.
        If it was built it would not grenade though. Still, making the car understand that is the whole problem. This all foreign territory for me, I find it idiotic torque limits are so hard to raise.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        Yes M156 revs higher (with FI rpm doesn't matter as much though) and has better flowing heads no question. However the M157 is fully forged, with sufficient fuel system and ECU scaling from the factory to accompany it's twin turbos. Making 600HP+ with a M157 is a tune only proposition, not so with a M156. Additionally M157s are backed by a strengthened trans that can handle the 663lb/ft the PP tune puts out and then some. The 722.9 can't and won't. The 722.9 converter is another story in and of itself.

        Basically the M157 is a much better starting point for FI performance.
        No doubt the M157 is going to be easier to extract the performance from and that will come faster. I'm just speaking on paper the M156 if it didn't have all the difficulties would be incredibly strong with boost since it is fairly efficient to begin with in NA form.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If it was built it would not grenade though. Still, making the car understand that is the whole problem. This all foreign territory for me, I find it idiotic torque limits are so hard to raise.
        It would still grenade if the trans was built unless the software was tuned for the upgraded hardware and additional tq. We tried upgraded internals alone in Keith's car with no success. The whole file needs to be remapped for a built trans to work and hold serious power/torque. Removing the limiters alone would only result in blown trans after blown trans. It's really a catch 22 situation and is the ultimate limiting factor for any M156 63 AMG.

        No doubt the M157 is going to be easier to extract the performance from and that will come faster. I'm just speaking on paper the M156 if it didn't have all the difficulties would be incredibly strong with boost since it is fairly efficient to begin with in NA form.
        The M156 was designed for twin turbos from the get go. The 80 degree vee angle was implemented so snails could fit on both sides. There are even parts of the cylinder head (exhaust ports) that tell you what the motor was destined for, however due to the emissions/fuel economy bull$#@! MB decided to TT and DI the "$#@!" motor 5.5L. I'm convinced a factory TT M156 would have been one of the greatest motors of all time. It still is without the FI actually.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        The M156 was designed for twin turbos from the get go. The 80 degree vee angle was implemented so snails could fit on both sides. There are even parts of the cylinder head (exhaust ports) that tell you what the motor was destined for, however due to the emissions/fuel economy bull$#@! MB decided to TT and DI the "$#@!" motor 5.5L. I'm convinced a factory TT M156 would have been one of the greatest motors of all time. It still is without the FI actually.
        I agree, I would simply prefer the M156 to be my boost platform if I could choose. It isn't that simple though.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        t would still grenade if the trans was built unless the software was tuned for the upgraded hardware and additional tq. We tried upgraded internals alone in Keith's car with no success. The whole file needs to be remapped for a built trans to work and hold serious power/torque. Removing the limiters alone would only result in blown trans after blown trans. It's really a catch 22 situation and is the ultimate limiting factor for any M156 63 AMG.
        I don't understand why it would still blow if the hardware was upgraded? I understand it couldn't be fully utilized and I thought this would cause errors but why would it grenade due to software?
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I agree, I would simply prefer the M156 to be my boost platform is I could choose. It isn't that simple though.
        No it's never that simple and there are always other considerations to be made.

        I don't understand why it would still blow if the hardware was upgraded? I understand it couldn't be fully utilized and I thought this would cause errors but why would it grenade due to software?
        One reason would be that some replacement parts aren't the same dimensionally speaking as stock meaning software changes are necessary as well in order to compensate ie clutch pack thickness.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        One reason would be that some replacement parts aren't the same dimensionally speaking as stock meaning software changes are necessary as well in order to compensate ie clutch pack thickness.
        I see, well that is a hell of a problem you guys have on your hands.