created the thread My 2012 SBD 700 E85 GTR Vs My ESS/AR 700 M3 on 91
" I wanted to take a few minutes are write up a small article on the whole M3 vs GTR debate, and my impressions of both of the cars, both stock vs highly modified. I feel now owning both, at the same time, and driving them both in stock form to both at 700hp, gives me a good amount of insight I can offer. I will touch base on many aspects of each car, and compare the M3 and GTR in both stock form, and at current power levels.
First and foremost, performance. I will begin with the power and delivery from each platform. We all love our M3’s, and I still do! But I feel it is just not really up to par in this category, at least stock vs stock. Up here in Elevation, the M3 in stock form is a slug. No way to beat around the bush on this. My M3 made 315hp/230tq SAE bone stock, up here. It felt very underwhelming and very disappointing. The linear delivery is great, and the throttle response blows the doors of the GTR however. The biggest gripe most of us have, is the lack of torque. While it makes it in a very linear and consistent fashion (very straight across the board from 2500rpm to 8k) it just doesn’t make enough of it. The trade off for the short stroke 4.0L is the ability to rev to astronomical RPMS closing in at 8400rpm. No one can deny the sheer pleasure of driving the crankshaft to these velocities. It puts a smile on my face every single time! Now, my 2012 GTR when bone stock, on pump gas and 11psi up here put down 395hp/375tq SAE on a mustang dyno. The car, however, felt much faster than the numbers reflected. The first 2 gears were very healthy and planted you back. The biggest advantage the GTR has over the M3, is the available torque, the mass of midrange available and the very short gearing. This is what propels this 3850lb mechanical behemoth from 0-60 in less then 3 seconds. Bone stock, however, it feels like she starts running out of steam past 80mph or so. It still pulls good, but there is a lack of tenacity that the first 3 gears bring. The response, while great, is no where near as crisp as the M3 in M mode. With everything being considered, I give the win to the GTR on stock vs stock performance.
Now, fast forward and compare both cars to how they sit now. The M3 running the following mods (ESS/AR 700 supercharger, AR Design catless xpipe and rear sections ESS tune, running from 91 to 105 octane) and the 2012 GTR (SBD 700 – GotBoost intakes, GotBoost Speed density conversion, Got Boost IC piping w/ Tials, SBD race dp’s, AAM Race midpipe, SBD 90mm street exhaust, Dual HKS fuel pumps and ID 1000 injectors. Tuned on E85) The M3 @ 9psi on 100 octane laid down 613hp/394tq on a dynojet, the GTR @ 20psi on E85 laid down 589hp/712tq. The power delivery couldn’t be any different between to cars. First, the M3. Under 6500rpm, the car feels like a slug. I use the term “feels” loosely, because the power delivery is so damn smooth and linear, you really don’t feel how fast the car actually is. The power creeps up on you and just continually pulls until you shift at 8600rpm. There is nothing eventful going on during this; no neck snapping, no sudden rush of power. This car is deceptively quick. I personally feel that past 50mph this car begins to shine. Down low, under 6500rpm it is gutless. This in part to the lack of stroke, and the nature of centrifugal superchargers. The power builds with rpm, and because if this, if you are not in the meat of the powerband (6500+) this car is uneventful. However, once you cross that threshold and are throwing the tach north of 7000rpm, this car becomes alive. It pulls very strongly up top, and due to the shorter gears, once your past 3rd gear, you never drop under 7000rpm when shifting at 8600rpm. This is where you want to be while racing this car. The lower end of the powerband and rolling into the throttle at 2-3k rpm leaves much to be desired, but the centrifugal blower paired with a short stroke, high compression 8600rpm capable V8 makes you tingle in your holiest of holies when you stand on the throttle past 6.5k! Now, on to the GTR. The delivery of this car is polar opposite of the blown 4.0 V8 from BMW. This car is just straight violent in the first 3 gears. Nothing, and I mean Nothing short of a hyper car or a very heavily modified street car with traction will stay next to a 700hp E85 GTR south of 80mph. I am still blown away by how much force this car puts out, and how well it puts it down. The stock turbos still take a split second to spool on E85, but once they do, you better make sure your ready to start banging that paddle, because the RPMS hit 7k in the first 3 gears before you can even react half the time. While the car “only” makes 589hp vs the M3’s 613, I firmly believe it’s the addition of over 300 extra lb of torque that manage to propel this machine in a manner that I can only describe as violent. The M3 would get absolutely destroyed in any dig or roll race that took place under 60mph. Before, when it was bone stock, the top end seemed to really lack a punch, but that was solved with the intakes and downpipes. It removed the 4 cats, and restricted 2” inlets that caused the car to fall flat up top. While the M3 makes more power up top, the GTR has so much more under the curve, and almost double the tq. This is evident the moment you line the 2 cars up. I don’t think anything can keep the M3 next to the GTR, at least not when its on E85. Tonight I had my buddy take my M3 out on 91 octane (roughly 570hp) and we ran 3 times from 60-130. I will post the video of this at the end. I think the M3 would need another 100hp to pull out on top from a higher roll (at least 60mph starting point) The GTR just has to much power and torque available under the curve, and the peaky delivery of the M3, while making more peak, just doesn’t have the fortitude through the rpm range to stay close to the GTR. I give the edge to the GTR on modified vs modified.
Transmissions: Both of my cars are equipped with the DCT variant. Now, both cars retain stock internals on the DCT’s, while the GTR is loaded with LC5 w/ BOTL. This doesn’t affect shifting, but more so just launching. The M3 transmission is very crisp! VERY CRISP! It shifts like butter when you want it to, and when you change the settings, it shifts violently if desired. At WOT, the difference is negligible. While on paper I do believe the M3 shifts faster, you cannot tell in a real world application. The shift time on both are phenomenal. The M3 seems to lag a hair compared to the GTR, but once again, we are splitting hairs over this. In auto mode, the M3’s shifting pattern can also be changed, to shift at a lower or higher rpm via the selector, which is a great function and keep the car from shifting to early, and lugging the car along under light acceleration. Now, the GTR. This car’s DCT is less refined, more clunky, and just doesn’t feel as smooth as the M3. While it’s still lightning fast and performs flawlessly while racing or on the throttle, in daily driving, it is a cumbersome unit. It clunks downshifting, can be jarring at times, and the upshifts (1-2 especially) can jolt the car under light loads. You can tell Nissan engineered this car with performance a priority over comfort with the DCT. Auto mode plain sucks. It shifts the car way to early, and causes it to lug around horribly around town. I never drive this damn thing in auto because of that. Daily use for the DCT is inferior to the M3. I give the M3 the edge by a good margin on the DCT vs the GTR’s.
Below is the video I was talking about with the run from tonight. My GTR was driven by me, on 20psi and E85 (589hp/712tq) The M3 was on pump (roughly down from 613hp/397tq to 570hp/360tq) This is the only video we manged to get, but we ran 3 times. 2 60-130 pulls and a 50-130 The 60 rolls both cars were in 3rd, the 50 roll M3 was in 2nd, GTR was in 3rd. This pull was a 60-130. "
Today, 02:20 AM