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    SLS AMG Black Series to come in coupe and roadster forms with 650 horsepower, price around $300,000-$350,000

    Autobild reports that the Mercedes SLS AMG will be getting a horsepower bump using the M159 (M156 variant) pushing 650 horsepower. For those counting, that will be an increase of approximately 87 horsepower over the standard SLS. That would also be 104 horsepower per liter which is a very impressive specific output for a V8 of that size. The other interesting bit of news is that it will not be limited to just coupes but supposedly will be available as a top down roadster. We'll see if AutoBild got this right soon enough, expect official details on the 2013 model year to come out in the next few months.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Autobild reports that the Mercedes SLS AMG will be getting a horsepower bump using the M156 to 650 horsepower.

    Sticky, just a quick note.....

    The SLS doesn't use the M156, it uses the M159 (based on the M156 but still reserves a few key differences).
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    I will take a roadster version thanks! Imagine the sound that thing will make!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, just a quick note.....

    The SLS doesn't use the M156, it uses the M159 (based on the M156 but still reserves a few key differences).
    Oh my gosh, my bad I should have been more clear! Sorry, M156 based but yes, M159 Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Maverick1975 Click here to enlarge
    I will take a roadster version thanks! Imagine the sound that thing will make!
    We put our orders in at the same time and see what kind of discount we get....

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    Hmmmm.
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    1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
    790WHP WEISTEC 2012 C63 Black Series
    725WHP WEISTEC 2014 SLS Black Series

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    Are you guys sure it's going to be M159. I have a feeling they will use a modified M157 TT engine on it. I don't know how they will get 87hp on a NA engine

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Portman Click here to enlarge
    Are you guys sure it's going to be M159. I have a feeling they will use a modified M157 TT engine on it. I don't know how they will get 87hp on a NA engine
    Didn't you hear ?? AMG just announced they will have PP do all the tuning for this car thats how it's making so much power LOL

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Portman Click here to enlarge
    Are you guys sure it's going to be M159. I have a feeling they will use a modified M157 TT engine on it. I don't know how they will get 87hp on a NA engine
    The specific output numbers are within reason. We will see, there have been some M157 rumors as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The specific output numbers are within reason. We will see, there have been some M157 rumors as well.
    Only time will tell. There maybe changes to the internals to the M159. 87hp gain on the current M159 would require LT Headers, catless system and a good tune, which I'm sure they would not acquire this type of system for production.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Portman Click here to enlarge
    Only time will tell. There maybe changes to the internals to the M159. 87hp gain on the current M159 would require LT Headers, catless system and a good tune, which I'm sure they would not acquire this type of system for production.
    What are you basing any of this on ?? Do you have any clue what you're talking about ? The internals on the M159 have already been upgraded from the standard M156, as well as the heads, numerous other things and dry sump lubrication. And it's no secret that this motor is very detuned from the factory - just like the M156 was. And the M156 with "long tubes, catless exhaust and a good tune" makes ~100 whp over stock. So it's not at all far fetched for the M159 to have an additional 87hp with some minor tweaks and more aggressive tuning from the factory...just like all Black Series variants Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Portman Click here to enlarge
    Only time will tell. There maybe changes to the internals to the M159. 87hp gain on the current M159 would require LT Headers, catless system and a good tune, which I'm sure they would not acquire this type of system for production.
    The factory could easily find gains in areas tuners would have more trouble with like the compression ratio, redline, valvetrain, cams, heads, etc.

    104 hp per liter is WELL within reason for AMG.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    Didn't you hear ?? AMG just announced they will have PP do all the tuning for this car thats how it's making so much power LOL
    I thought it was MHP and all Andys tight ties with the factory LMAO!
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    1000+WHP WEISTEC 2008 CLK63 Black Series
    790WHP WEISTEC 2012 C63 Black Series
    725WHP WEISTEC 2014 SLS Black Series

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Portman Click here to enlarge
    Are you guys sure it's going to be M159. I have a feeling they will use a modified M157 TT engine on it. I don't know how they will get 87hp on a NA engine
    Although I love the M156 and M159 engines, I'm really hoping that they will indeed use the M157 because then the tuning potential will be huge..... I wonder if this car will be on-par with the Ferrari 458 Scuderia
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Although I love the M156 and M159 engines, I'm really hoping that they will indeed use the M157 because then the tuning potential will be huge..... I wonder if this car will be on-par with the Ferrari 458 Scuderia
    From what I've heard, it will be right there with it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
    I thought it was MHP and all Andys tight ties with the factory LMAO!
    LOL - had to rep you for that one.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    From what I've heard, it will be right there with it.
    I think so too.... but the regular SLS didn't stack up too good at Famoso last year vs the Italia.... the SLS ran a best of 11.8 @ 123 mph while the 458 Italia ran 11.0 @ 129 mph (same day same track). I don't know exactly what was contributing to such a big gap in time between them (0.8 seconds) aside from weight as they were both rated at 560 hp. It could be the transmission as the shifts of the Ferrari felt at least twice as fast as the ones in the SLS. The Scuderia version is rumored to have forced induction so it may be more potent as well.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I think so too.... but the regular SLS didn't stack up too good at Famoso last year vs the Italia.... the SLS ran a best of 11.8 @ 123 mph while the 458 Italia ran 11.0 @ 129 mph (same day same track). I don't know exactly what was contributing to such a big gap in time between them (0.8 seconds) aside from weight as they were both rated at 560 hp. It could be the transmission as the shifts of the Ferrari felt at least twice as fast as the ones in the SLS. The Scuderia version is rumored to have forced induction so it may be more potent as well.
    I just can't see that happening unless its turbos ?? A blower would ruin it on the track and that's what the Scuds are made for. I'm pretty sure it will be NA but tweaked a bit like previous versions. And yeah...the Scud transmission is sick fast plus the weight advantage.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    Although I love the M156 and M159 engines, I'm really hoping that they will indeed use the M157 because then the tuning potential will be huge..... I wonder if this car will be on-par with the Ferrari 458 Scuderia
    The idea is for a track car and the NA powerplant makes far more sense. Nobody wants limp mode after a lap.

    For a price higher than the 458 it BETTER be on par.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I think so too.... but the regular SLS didn't stack up too good at Famoso last year vs the Italia.... the SLS ran a best of 11.8 @ 123 mph while the 458 Italia ran 11.0 @ 129 mph (same day same track). I don't know exactly what was contributing to such a big gap in time between them (0.8 seconds) aside from weight as they were both rated at 560 hp. It could be the transmission as the shifts of the Ferrari felt at least twice as fast as the ones in the SLS. The Scuderia version is rumored to have forced induction so it may be more potent as well.
    They both have dual clutches so it really isn't shift speed as the limitation with those transmissions really is just the speed at which you can move something mechanically at this point. We are talking shifts for both 30 times faster than you can blink your eye.

    The weight and launch due to a mid engine layout were likely the primary factors. The SLS also dyno's more horsepower I believe but I'm too lazy to go dig out it out right now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
    I just can't see that happening unless its turbos ?? A blower would ruin it on the track and that's what the Scuds are made for. I'm pretty sure it will be NA but tweaked a bit like previous versions. And yeah...the Scud transmission is sick fast plus the weight advantage.
    No way Ferrari would do a supercharger. Turbos? Interesting, but no previous version of any Scuderia or Challenge Stradale went the route of forced induction. Instead, Ferrari reduced weight and optimized the poewerplant already used. It makes sense for them to repeat this precedent. I haven't heard any turbo rumors other than for the next generation of cars. Too much is already invested in the current motor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They both have dual clutches so it really isn't shift speed as the limitation with those transmissions really is just the speed at which you can move something mechanically at this point. We are talking shifts for both 30 times faster than you can blink your eye.

    The weight and launch due to a mid engine layout were likely the primary factors. The SLS also dyno's more horsepower I believe but I'm too lazy to go dig out it out right now.
    I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
    I don't see why the SLS would shift so much slower? It uses a Getrag unit from I what I understand which should be around the 8 ms mark.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Exeenom Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking if the SLS shifts at 120 ms and the Ferrari at 50 ms (not sure of exact figures) and both cars have to make 3 shifts before the end of the 1/4 mile, then the Ferrari would have an instant 0.21 second advantage by the end of the 1/4 mil just from shift speed. You're right though.... if they both have DCT technology, I would think their shift times would be much much closer.
    Here is an old post of mine on the subject:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Now, here is actual documentation to support shift speeds and the reason why a dual clutch transmission simply can not be approached by an automatic or manual.

    A dual clutch transmission is essentially two manual transmissions in one housing. One gear set is responsible for odd gears and one gear set is responsible for even gears. The next gear is essentially already preselected. When one gear set is disengaged, the other is already in gear and it is basically an instantaneous shift with no perceivable interruption. It happens forty times faster than the blink of an eye.

    The VW group has their DSG numbers published and they are 8 milliseconds. Basically, a human being can not even perceive the gear change.

    The fastest automatic in the world is the Lexus IS-F gearbox, at 100 ms. The ZF transmission in BMW's is at the 200 ms mark.

    Unfortunately, a person with extreme bias posted numbers without realizing what they were posting or willing to admit reality, skewing numbers to misrepresent the facts due to personal issues.

    Well, here are the numbers with support.

    A long shift time is considered anything over 625 ms

    The average manual car driver: 500 ms - 1 s
    Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms
    Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
    BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 220 ms
    Ferrari 360: 150 ms
    Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms
    Lexus LFA: 150 ms
    Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms
    Nissan GT-R: 100ms
    BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms
    Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
    Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
    All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms

    The source for shift times as well as DSG information is here if one is interested: http://paultan.org/2006/06/26/vw-pha...s-way-for-dsg/

    BMW has not posted official shift times for the DCT unfortunately. Why not? Getrag just hasn't released the info officially but 4 ms has been posted as a "leak" on M3post.

    The Nissan GTR time is stated odd and I believe it is simply due to how Nissan explains it cutting the shift time in R mode vs. regular mode. The GR6 Borg Warner tranny is not shifting slower than sequential manuals, just does not make sense. Maybe it is 100 ms though, but that would just be odd.

    Just how big of a difference does the DCT make? Even vs. the best auto transmission in the world for shift speed, it will be picking up a conservative tenth per shift. What about vs. a manual? Well, here is a professional driver in a manual car vs. the same car in DSG, see for yourself:



    So, hopefully this explains some things for people. All transmissions have their strengths and weaknesses, however, for flat out the fastest shift speeds available today, dual clutch transmissions do not have an equal and are simply on their own level.

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