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  1. #1
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    N/A meth injection

    I have all the pieces for a functional meth kit laying around. I'm contemplating tryin it out
    Only problem is no boost line yet. So how do we go about activating it?

    I found a vacuum switch but not sure how to set it up for vacuum

    Activation range: 10 to 1" Hg vacuum

    Is that what I need, and where would I start it?

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    I would activate at 1" HG or slightly before. You'll have to play with it and see where it bogs. But I would say as close to positive pressure as possible.
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    Positive is impossible, right now Click here to enlarge but I hear ya.

    I'm trying to find what it will be at WOT. It looks like I just have to t a gauge in and find out

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    It should read 0 at wot. Preparing for fi, or you trying a racemap?
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    Differential Lockdown Braces for E9x & e8x
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    Dont inject too much meth NA, this isnt a boosted car. You need to start with small nozzles and work your way up, monitor your AFRs if you can. You will need to get a vacuum switch, just like boostaddict said start injection at 1" vacuum which is right before WOT.

    WOT at any load will show up as zero vacuum so dont go flooring it at 1500 RPM because it will inject meth and could foul plugs etc...
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    I found a switch for $15. I may order it when I get back.
    I'm thinking a very small nozzle, maybe a m3 to start and try reg ww fluid first, then boost juice.
    Ideally this would be on the dyno, but may have to hit the strip for a clean run.

    I'm curious how much and what mix
    And more importantly, how well the ecu can compensate.

    And no, no race map, just want to cool things off and see how the car reacts.
    Noone but Shiv has publicly done it so it should be a decent experience

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    I don't think there is even any reason to mess around with this. Just run race gas for the timing advance.

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    Engine will feel better during hot days. Cylinder walls will pretty much stay cleaner longer. It wont do the engine wrong if it is set up right.
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    I want to control/stabilize IAT more than anything. Not worried about timing per se. I'm the first guy to advocate running proper octane for your needs/wants

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    Not concerned as in worried, but want to control as many external factors as possible

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    Where do you plan to inject? I suggest you inject far upstream and use a good bit of methanol content, 75% or more. You dont really need the water in the mix, I just dont see a reason to inject meth at all unless it is really hot out. You will probably pick up a few horses on the dyno just because dyno rooms tend to be hot ambient, your intake air without meth when the car is moving is probably going to be 5-10 F above ambient which is not like +100F we see on the N54s without meth.
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    I planned on tapping into the airfilter itself. I wanted to test the mix % starting low meth, but makes sense to do it the opposite.

    I wish we knew if the ecu is adaptive as the n54.

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    honestly you might gain a little but the trouble of doing it isn't worth it i believe. Our cars are very consistent in N/A form go to the dyno and do back to back runs till you hit your peak numbers.Most of the time all runs after will be with 1-2% sometimes more in hotter temps.
    F10 M5 : ??????
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    I dont know much about the S65 ECU but I can bet you it is a very finely tuned engine stock, throwing more fuel into the intake will definately cause the ECU to try and adapt by leaning out injectors. Someone with more experience can probably tell you more, but I believe WOT is open loop and goes straight to fuel tables, manifold pressure and VE, so injecting meth at WOT you may lose power by going too rich but also pick up power by cooling the air. The net gain still may be a positive one but I dont get a warm fuzzy feeling about doing it.
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    I think I read that it's closed loop from Shiv's testing... so it should handle the meth just fine. Shiv was getting gains in advance and maybe AFR, but this is with piggy tuning of course. Depending on the measured IATs this may help in raising timing, which the octane would sustain. Hot summer could be decent gains.

    where's the IAT sensor?

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    I'm not concerned with install pain, I love tinkering. It will give me something to do and try out/reason to go drive and beat up on it

    It may be on hold anyway for other reasons Click here to enlarge

    I've seen shivs testing, and aware of what he claims. I do not recall seeing any timing logs. I'm under the assumption that the power gain, is from better timing due to octane and iat, not tuned timing advance. Of course, this is speculation from previous reputations.

    I am concerned about afr. Why I wanted to do it.on the dyno and monitor afr, while logging all the parameters with a BT

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    Did Shiv's NA meth M3 setup even get anywhere?

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    Never seen this done, do you think your power gains would be the same as a boosted car with meth? Sub'd, wanna see how this goes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwtek Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Never seen this done, do you think your power gains would be the same as a boosted car with meth? Sub'd, wanna see how this goes.
    Gains on a percentage basis wont be anywhere near a boosted car. Real reason a boosted car can see 50% increase in hp is because they can run more boost, but NA car cant run more NA!!
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    The most N/A gains you will see with methanol (100% meth) from an air density standpoint is in the range of 10-11% at near perfect conditions. You might be able to get a little more on top of this by adjusting timing.

    To clarify, this is the absolute MAX THEORETICAL gain due to lower air density at the following conditions: 100F and 0% humidity. This does not take into account mass transfer rate of methanol from liquid to vapor, which might or might not be negligible. More likely THEORETICAL gains for closer to normal conditions of 80F and 50% humidity are in the range of 4-5%.

    Relative to no methanol injection, the following will increase power gains:

    - Higher ambient temperature
    - Lower humidity
    - Lower pressure (temperature has larger effect than pressure, this is why FI engines get more of a benefit)


    I have no idea how these theoretical gains translate to actual gains, but they should be a good starting point.

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    Higher ambient temp will produce a gain? Explain

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Higher ambient temp will produce a gain? Explain
    Meaning that as temperature goes up, you have more to gain by using methanol injection. Methanol is more effective as ambient temperature rises because you can vaporize more.

    I was not trying to say that you gain power as temperature goes up with a given set-up. Methanol or no methanol, you will obviously lose power as air density goes down.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Higher ambient temp will produce a gain? Explain
    Something else to consider is nozzle placement.

    Methanol injection will cause an increased pressure drop (~15%+ dP per length) in the intake section, but you also need good distribution and enough mixing time to vaporize as much as possible.

    ETA: My initial feeling is that nozzle placement is more important for N/A use than it is for F/I. If you need a higher manifold pressure with a turbo for example to compensate for more piping losses, the DME can fix that for you with more compressor duty.
    Last edited by ProbyOne; 06-13-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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    Ok, as I read it, it sounded like you meant w/o meth, higher ambient would show gains, guess I misinterpreted what u were saying.

    I have 2, maybe 3 options on nozzle placement

    1. Tapped into the end of the airfilter itself
    2. Tapped into top of the airbox
    3. Tapped into manifold somewhere

    I'm thinking 3, is the worst. 2 is theoretically best, but meth/water has to pass through airfilter, so probably still second best

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