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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Oh, DCT is useless if someone can drive a manual. Click here to enlarge

    You apparently being the only person who can make it useless obviously since professional test drivers superior to you in every respect can't even get close to it. You clearly being superior to them and all and somehow defying what all testing and evidence supports. Logical again.

    Yes, you will make me look stupid on video by doing what nobody else has ever done because it is a physical impossibility. Good point.

    Why don't we just get down to the point of all this and have everyone pat you on the back for shifting quickly. Isn't that what you really are seeking? Some kind of validation of your driving? It's ok, you shift quickly. Everything will be fine, I promise.

    iF you have two feet and two arms, you can drive a manual just fine, however not every one can shift a manual to get everything out of it. Alot of people think they can shift when in reality they are knocking off .3 second shifts. Where dct might be better is when you get into stupid horsepower that requires alot more skill. I am talking about 800 plus whp car that are a handful, yea I can see a dct winning alot more even against the best driver, however when it comes to these regular 200-500 whp cars, it aint worth $#@! imo.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    iF you have two feet and two arms, you can drive a manual just fine, however not every one can shift a manual to get everything out of it.
    WE GET IT. Cool, driver variance has an impact with manual transmissions. Ok, and?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Where dct might be better is when you get into stupid horsepower that requires alot more skill.
    No. DCT is always better in performance as it always shifts faster 100% of the time. It never will lose a shift speed contest with any human being because it is already in gear. I don't care how fast you shift, you are not in gear before the time to shift. Guess what? A dual clutch is.

    It also is worth more with slower cars where the disparity is greater and not masked by power/torque. A 700 whp car will take longer to stretch its legs and will strut its stuff in the higher gears where shift speed is less important. You really don't know as much as you like to think you do.

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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    WE GET IT. Cool, driver variance has an impact with manual transmissions. Ok, and?



    No. DCT is always better in performance as it always shifts faster 100% of the time. It never will lose a shift speed contest with any human being because it is already in gear. I don't care how fast you shift, you are not in gear before the time to shift. Guess what? A dual clutch is.
    shifting faster and being faster from point A to B are two different things....

    You are an idiot, a 700whp will pull alot harder when the other 700 whp is shifting slow vs two cars that are at 200 whp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    shifting faster and being faster from point A to B are two different things....
    Why do you not get this? The M3 shifts faster. Your car accelerates slightly faster than said M3. You both end up at the same point because of the shift speed disparity as the M3 spends more time accelerating in the same period.

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  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why do you not get this? The M3 shifts faster. Your car accelerates slightly faster than said M3. You both end up at the same point because of the shift speed disparity as the M3 spends more time accelerating in the same period.
    If my car accelerated faster it would trap higher, and it got out trapped....

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    Hey Stucks, Maybe me and you should test this out and put everything to rest. Same JB4, same amount of e85, same engine, my DCT vs your AT.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    You are an idiot, a 700whp will pull alot harder when the other 700 whp is shifting slow vs two cars that are at 200 whp.
    No, I'm sorry, you are the idiot who doesn't understand the issue is shift speed and you do not shift as frequently in higher gears. A mistake will cost you more at higher power levels, sure.

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  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lutfi001 Click here to enlarge
    Hey Stucks, Maybe me and you should test this out and put everything to rest. Same JB4, same amount of e85, same engine, my DCT vs your AT.
    There is nothing to put to rest although I'm sure it will be cool to see.

    This has already been tested professionally several times. People seem to be ignoring it. 3 MPH in the 1/4 on the new M5 and Carrera S. With professional test drivers who do this for a living. There is no debate.

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  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    If my car accelerated faster it would trap higher, and it got out trapped....
    Yes, due to the dual clutch accelerating more in the same distance. If you had a DCT you would trap higher too. When in gear how do you accelerate?

    Why not just pick 1 gear, no shift, and see how that goes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No, I'm sorry, you are the idiot who doesn't understand the issue is shift speed and you do not shift as frequently in higher gears. A mistake will cost you more at higher power levels, sure.
    I understand shift speed, you dont understand that the DCT is useless from point A to B if the dirver is good. You can shift at 40-60ms, no1 cares, and it won't pull on a driver that knows what they are doing in a manual tranmission that isnt bothered by nanies and other bull$#@! like the BMW trannies are. personally my n54 tranny sucked, the stand is a different animal. You can rip the shifter out of the car and it won't protest, it will just chirp the 3-4 at 100mph in a stock car....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Your point on driver skill is great and all but it what is a fact is that a dual clutch will beat a manual in the same car no matter who the hell is driving it. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want for rowing your own gears as you stare at taillights.

    And no, a DCT or auto does not take away your driving skill it allows you to concentrate on accelerating, turning, braking, etc and to do so more consistently. Not rowing your own gears does not suddenly make you retarded.
    DCT requires less skill to drive thats a fact, you've eliminated using the left foot for the clutch. You've eliminated the right hand for shifting and you do not need to heel toe with the right foot. Plus your concerns with the redline with DCT are eliminated as it will shift up even in manual mode. Soooo exactly where do you see needing more skills to be fast in one vs the other? Seriously at some point you have to remove yourself from the DCT teet and walk on your own here. The DCT and like styled trans you to point and steer only and while that requires skill it does not take anywhere near as much as a manual trans car. The manual gives you far more control, thats a fact.
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, due to the dual clutch accelerating more in the same distance. If you had a DCT you would trap higher too. When in gear how do you accelerate?

    Why not just pick 1 gear, no shift, and see how that goes.
    I accelerate just fine, just look at the video, like i said the shifts match up, and no ground is lost. I also do not gain ground while in gear, so If i dont gain ground in gear, and I get out shifted during a gear (accoring to you) how do i make the time to match the ET?

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Late to the party.. But OP we need to get you going with a 15ohm upgrade and say a 40% E85 mix! Click here to enlarge
    +1..E85 and 15 ohm are a good match! Click here to enlarge

    In reply to MT vs DCT....DCT are nice and unbeatable for shift times and ease (and price!)...but the fact that they require a rebuild for more power and arent NEARLY as much fun on a daily basis to drive...Ill pass!

    Nonetheless it is still cutting edge technology that reduces huge user error for every type of driving habit/style....but it takes "away" from a sports car in some ways (opinion)...Just depends on the person tho..
    PERFORMANCE: Cobb AP \ JB4 \ DCI \ AR Downpipes \ CX FMIC \ ER Chargepipe \ Synapse BOV \ KW V2 \ Muffler Delete \ CDV \ ZHP Shifter \ Cyba Scoops
    FUN: LC Lemans 19" \ M3 Front \ Mtech Rear \ JL 10W6 \ ModMyNav \ V1 Hardwired \ LUX H8 \ Gloss Black Trim \ Cyba Quads \ Cyba Mtech Diffuser

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    you dont understand that the DCT is useless from point A to B if the dirver is good
    My god. How is it useless? How? You race in a 1/4 mile no matter how good you are you simply will lose. What is it that will prevent this exactly? Every direct test with professional drivers supports this. What, they lost because they weren't you? What, the DCT didn't shift in 8ms because they weren't you? What, the DCT malfunctioned because you weren't in the manual car? Do you even read anything on the forum or just pull things blindly out of your ass however it suits you at that time?

    READ: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...er-than-manual

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    DCT requires less skill to drive thats a fact, you've eliminated using the left foot for the clutch. You've eliminated the right hand for shifting and you do not need to heel toe with the right foot. Plus your concerns with the redline with DCT are eliminated as it will shift up even in manual mode. Soooo exactly where do you see needing more skills to be fast in one vs the other? Seriously at some point you have to remove yourself from the DCT teet and walk on your own here. The DCT and like styled trans you to point and steer only and while that requires skill it does not take anywhere near as much as a manual trans car. The manual gives you far more control, thats a fact.
    That's fine, I don't care about the skill involved or getting an erection from every perfect heel-toe. It changes nothing regarding performance superiority.

    You can say it's more fun, more involving, whatever. Does not change anything.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    My god. How is it useless? How? You race in a 1/4 mile no matter how good you are you simply will lose. What is it that will prevent this exactly? Every direct test with professional drivers supports this. What, they lost because they weren't you? What, the DCT didn't shift in 8ms because they weren't you? What, the DCT malfunctioned because you weren't in the manual car? Do you even read anything on the forum or just pull things blindly out of your ass however it suits you at that time?

    READ: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...er-than-manual

    Sorry, I use real world results. You still have yet to answer my question. My car did not pull in gear, and if it lost time shifting, 3 shifts, then how did it match the ET while being out trapped. Riddle me this oh wise parrot.

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    Sticky your assertion is that a DCT car will be faster in any circumstance vs say a manual car. Is that correct?

    So around a road course, slalom, drag strip or highway pulls that DCT will always be faster than its manual trans counterpart.
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    I accelerate just fine, just look at the video, like i said the shifts match up, and no ground is lost. I also do not gain ground while in gear, so If i dont gain ground in gear, and I get out shifted during a gear (accoring to you) how do i make the time to match the ET?
    The shifts do not match up perfectly. It's impossible as the DCT is shifting in 8ms. You can't even process how fast that is. You can't match it up the way you are thinking by running two cars side by side and saying, "Oh, they are even they must be shifting at the exact same time and at the exact same speed."

    You won't accelerate the same in every gear. Run in 5th versus 5th for example and see if it is different. The DCT M3 puts out a lot of torque in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

    It's like having a manual M3 run a DCT M3 in 3rd gear only. The DCT will win until the manual passes it as it is a longer gear. The manual will then be accelerating faster in 3rd than the DCT is in 4th.

    You are focusing on 1 factor and ignoring all the other variables that affect the acceleration other than the shifting.

    I know you think you drive well. You aren't shifting as fast as a dual clutch transmission. It will click at some point.

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    BTW these professional drivers said my car with the 3.73 gear and the sticky summer tires ran 12.9 @ 110.....mine with the $#@! tires and the worst gearing went 12.6 @ 112, REAL professional...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's fine, I don't care about the skill involved or getting an erection from every perfect heel-toe. It changes nothing regarding performance superiority.

    You can say it's more fun, more involving, whatever. Does not change anything.
    As long we can acknowledge the main point I am making here thats fine. You are effectively acknowledging that driving an DCT car requires little to no skill. Now we can get to the faster part
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The shifts do not match up perfectly. It's impossible as the DCT is shifting in 8ms. You can't even process how fast that is. You can't match it up the way you are thinking by running two cars side by side and saying, "Oh, they are even they must be shifting at the exact same time and at the exact same speed."

    You won't accelerate the same in every gear. Run in 5th versus 5th for example and see if it is different. The DCT M3 puts out a lot of torque in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

    It's like having a manual M3 run a DCT M3 in 3rd gear only. The DCT will win until the manual passes it as it is a longer gear. The manual will then be accelerating faster in 3rd than the DCT is in 4th.

    You are focusing on 1 factor and ignoring all the other variables that affect the acceleration other than the shifting as well.

    I know you think you drive well. You aren't shifting as fast as a dual clutch transmission. It will click at some point.
    Who gives a $#@!, I did not pull steves car in gear, if anything he pulled me in gear, yet the ET was the same. We both launched, same 60 foot, and both shifted 3 times, he pushed amazing 8ms paddles, and I rowed a stick with a clutch, yet the ET was the same. GEt the big picture here?

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    Dual clutch transmission versus manual performance and gear shift time debate or some people are ignorant

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Sticky your assertion is that a DCT car will be faster in any circumstance vs say a manual car. Is that correct?

    So around a road course, slalom, drag strip or highway pulls that DCT will always be faster than its manual trans counterpart.
    Obviously the slalom is not an acceleration test. Why would I pick a trans for slalom superiority? Wouldn't I pay more attention to suspension and tires?

    Around a road course DCT's have proven faster. We have a few laptimes that support this I can go look up but everyone is ignoring data as is.

    A DCT with equal gearing, on the same car, will always be faster than its manual counterpart in a straight line. The new M5 testing supports it, the new Carrera S testing supports it, VW Golf testing supports it, the outcome has never been the reverse because it is physically impossible.

    The next gear is already selected. The DCT always wins even though it has more drivetrain loss and more weight. That should show you just how big the difference in shift time truly is. It's 40 times faster than you blink your eye. I don't think people even understand the amount of time we are talking about here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Who gives a $#@!, I did not pull steves car in gear, if anything he pulled me in gear, yet the ET was the same. We both launched, same 60 foot, and both shifted 3 times, he pushed amazing 8ms paddles, and I rowed a stick with a clutch, yet the ET was the same. GEt the big picture here?
    Ok, ET was the same. And? That means you both shift equally? That is evidence of equal shift time somehow?

    Nobody is saying a manual car can't be as fast as a dual clutch car.

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  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    As long we can acknowledge the main point I am making here thats fine. You are effectively acknowledging that driving an DCT car requires little to no skill. Now we can get to the faster part
    I'd love to see you launch a DCT at the strip. Then we can debate skill.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    BTW these professional drivers said my car with the 3.73 gear and the sticky summer tires ran 12.9 @ 110.....mine with the $#@! tires and the worst gearing went 12.6 @ 112, REAL professional...
    Ok you're better than every professional driver in the world. Happy? Thread over now?

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