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  1. #1
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    MS 109 Race Fuel versus 93 octane (Shell +10% E)

    On an N/A car like my E39 540i V8 (stock except for CAI) what type of power gains would one expect using the MS109 (105 oct equivalent) over 93 octane pump gas...... would 10% be too high a guess

    I put 5 gallons of MS109 in my car today with some 100 octane gas and wow, the difference was stupendous
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  2. #2
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    Anyone, anyone... Buehler, Buehler ?
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  3. #3
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    i would assume no gains unless you were knocking stock...

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    On an NA car you will see gains with a custom tune but nothing major.

    Is it worth it for what, 10 whp thanks to timing gains? Better to get some mods for big power than squeezing out a couple minor ponies.

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    10-20 WHP max with a custom tune... Gonna need some more supporting mods (exhaust) or a bolt-on supercharger to see any noticeable gains
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    10-20 WHP max with a custom tune... Gonna need some more supporting mods (exhaust) or a bolt-on supercharger to see any noticeable gains

    Do the older model DME's adjust at all for octane changes at all ?

    I had heard on the other end of the scale that the DME would pull timing if on N20 and detonation conditions were detected....

    Maybe it was just that great smelling MS109 that affected my head but the times I was doing with the high octane and by just adding a CAI (AFE) and cleaning injectors, intakes etc was quite a bit better
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Group.america Click here to enlarge
    Do the older model DME's adjust at all for octane changes at all ?

    I had heard on the other end of the scale that the DME would pull timing if on N20 and detonation conditions were detected....
    I would assume that older DMEs would only retard timing (like the newer BMW DMEs on the 135/335/M3/etc etc), but they would never advance it beyond the factory timing target. Just means if you put 100+ octane in the car, it would run like it's supposed to but not any stronger.
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    benzy - Thx
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    The older ECUs can adv/retard timing depending on the maps available... at least 2: low and high octane. The switch is based on knock sensor activity. The newer BMW DME only has 1 timing curve and just continually retards/advances real time, but wont adv past the set curve. Likely the power difference you felt is jumping to a higher oct map.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    The older ECUs can adv/retard timing depending on the maps available... at least 2: low and high octane. The switch is based on knock sensor activity. The newer BMW DME only has 1 timing curve and just continually retards/advances real time, but wont adv past the set curve. Likely the power difference you felt is jumping to a higher oct map.
    Not that I don't believe you, or the other 100 people that have said this on the internet. But for my E46 M3, I am trying to find anything that shows the DME can adjust for higher octane levels.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Not that I don't believe you, or the other 100 people that have said this on the internet. But for my E46 M3, I am trying to find anything that shows the DME can adjust for higher octane levels.
    To a degree it will...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    To a degree it will...
    It will running timing correction free..... The DME's factory setting def won't get much more "aggressive" and yield more performance than if it had 93/94 octane in it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    It will running timing correction free..... The DME's factory setting def won't get much more "aggressive" and yield more performance than if it had 93/94 octane in it.
    agree 100%

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    If you want more on 100 octane you'll need a race tune.

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    IF it was up to me, I'd aim for a 95 octane tune vs. a 93 --- Reason why is you're already going through all the trouble of blending fuels, so why not turn it up just a bit more. Still won't require you run straight 100+, but the gains will be more "pronounced" in a 91/95 tune vs 91/93.


    To each's own though
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If you want more on 100 octane you'll need a race tune.
    "Race tune" Yosemite Sam says, "Yee-haa!!!!"

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    I ran 5gal ms109 mixed with about 3 gal 100. Didn't notice a difference over e40/e50
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Race gas naturally retards the peak cylinder pressure event. It burns slower and more controlled. Therefore adding race gas to a car that is tuned for 93 will in theory make less power.
    110 octane fuel usually needs a 4 degree advance in timing globally across the ignition map to achieve the same peak cylinder pressure timing that the car was tuned for on 93.
    the only circumstance where race fuel would yield more power without any other changes whatsoever is in the circumstance where the car actually needed less timing in order to achieve Maximum Brake Torque.
    I.e.- a engine that is moving air much more efficiently after modifications will generally require less ignition advance to achieve MBT.

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    4deg is a bunch for newer engines... maybe on a hemi. MBT is typically knock limited, no way you can be past theoretical MBT (ie peak pressure <15deg ATDC) on pump with a S motor. Added power is due to more ign adv... either by reduced knock retard or jumping to a more aggressive ign map putting you closer to optimum peak pressure of 15-18deg.

    All race gas does not necessarily burn slower... depends on the gas/additives. The primary advantage is higher auto ignition temp.

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    I agree with that. I still don't see race gas alone increasing power output without any other changes tho.

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    Not much unless you change the tune of the car.




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    Swami sez, " FI for the OP in the near future." Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Omni Click here to enlarge
    Race gas naturally retards the peak cylinder pressure event. It burns slower and more controlled. Therefore adding race gas to a car that is tuned for 93 will in theory make less power.
    110 octane fuel usually needs a 4 degree advance in timing globally across the ignition map to achieve the same peak cylinder pressure timing that the car was tuned for on 93.
    the only circumstance where race fuel would yield more power without any other changes whatsoever is in the circumstance where the car actually needed less timing in order to achieve Maximum Brake Torque.
    I.e.- a engine that is moving air much more efficiently after modifications will generally require less ignition advance to achieve MBT.
    Very, very nice post.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    some more considerations:

    - calorific value of the fuel to consider (heat release per unit mass)

    - latent heat of vaporization. some fuels can increase power is if they take heat away from the intake charge lowering the IAT and thus increasing VE. ethanol, methanol and such fuels this effect is more pronounced.

    also a more oxygenated fuel can make more power, and due to the environmentalists and those concerned with life of catalytic converters and o2 sensors means that pump fuel doesn't have some additives that can improve performance.

    one things is that simply looking at the Octane and ignition timing is really only one part of story. the chemistry and thermodynamics is complex

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