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  1. #1
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    Revs and more revs - RPM, boosting high revving NA motors, and getting the N54 to 9k rpm

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    Ok im back in town

    The shop im working with actually just acquired a dyno so that's pretty awesome

    Some other quick news it will be awhile before car runs i want to do it right so we are now working on the dual hpfp I'm not going to give a completion date but it will be hopefully allow full e85 use. Also ferrera valve springs retainers etc are coming my way and the car will be tested like that on pump e85 and race gas no meth of any sort after that is tested i have cams coming my way in a month or so and that will be the setup until the motor blows up
    are the springs/retainers etc. custom one-offs for you?

    i'm guessing being ferrea they're pretty baller priced? haha

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    I want to rev to 9k if the turbo and the head can support the flow and not let torque drop too much if i can hold horsepower flat to redline by playing with boost timing etc id be ecstatic i mean $#@! if i can hold torque flat to 9k my hp would rise like crazy due to the revs. Well see when its all tested i think im going to do it in stages so others can see the resylts
    Dual hpfps
    Valve springs
    Cams
    Head port and polish

    That way people can see what they want to achieve their results
    9k? wow that's a bit uh. wow that's huge goals lol. at that point i'd be more concerned about the low rod:stroke ratio than anything? not to mention the stock cams may not breathe so well, even fully ported/enlarged with a big turbo o_o

    I was interested in getting to 7500-8000rpm 'safely' valvetrain wise, and even thinking THAT may be unrealistic (but by gum i'm going to try lol), but wow. i'm really glad there's someone on here with even crazier plans than mine Click here to enlarge

    My thoughts would be a long rod setup or something like i believe FFTEC has said they're building would be where you'd have to go for anywhere near what you're looking at.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    ? Um, 100% E85 is going to make no more power than race gas and meth, it will actually prob make a little less to be honest. People want to run it because its cheap, readily available, and makes good power. But its no replacement for very high octane race fuel in a full out race, or dyno situation. This is fact not an opinion. Why do you think they make full out Race E85 such a FTW etc. Because pump E85 can be vary in ethanol content and consistency. People want a better HPFP solution to run pump E85 because it makes running high power levels on the street very cheap and easy. If you wanted to run race gas and meth all the time, its not really needed.
    Plenty of race teams over here run E85 (C85, martini RE85 etc. for the more professional ones). i know i could smell burning vodka all through pit lane at WTAC haha. Probably because it's cheaper more than anything, you're right... and even the C85, at ~ $16/gal.. it's not every day stuff lol... Plus, racing regs are slowly moving over in a lot of cases to E85 fuels only due to emissions and wanting to be all enviro lol. like V8supertaxis.

    For the amateur races, E85 here (can be found very stable at the pump) is super common. Lucky. Plenty of people exceed 1000hp on it and are just careful to test content.

    i mean.. if you could spend tons of money on race gas or not much money on stable cheap E85, when both will make you the same amount of power (given your setup and goals).. I know what i'd pick. Given, if it varied highly, i'd have to spring for the race gas >_<

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    We have already figured a set up out and parts are already being machined, its pretty sweet set up and will install rather painlessly. Curious to see what they come up with.
    waitwaitwaitttt.. really? that's not quite what i expected, awesome! Very interested to see your progress there when you're ready, and i'll definitely put my hand up for preorders/first batch if it all works Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    What do you mean, cant you just chuck blanks up in the lathe and cut some cams?..Click here to enlarge I was being nice, but unwillingness to let go of the overdrive HPFP even after multiple people who have been in there and said it was a terrible idea, and now claiming they are going to get a motor that had a redline of 7000-7200 to spin to 9 grand with some beefed up springs and retainers was all I needed to hear to realize this may not be the most well thought out process. But it will be interesting to keep up on none the less.
    obviously. no special consideration with the vanos or anything Click here to enlarge

    he's obviously willing to spend some money, and even if it doesn't work, i wouldn't call it a bad idea... bit different to someone coming on with nothing to show but ideas and dreams i think.
    boop

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    9k rpm? I think 8k redline on a built-motor N54 is an aggressive goal, but probably doable. 9k? 9k?!!! LOL damn that is being optimistic, I mean, I hope it happens, but I'm really not holding my breath. There has already been testing and comparisons of piston speed and just general design of what it takes for higher revving, and the N54 just isn't it. It's open deck (yes thicker cylinder walls than average) will only allow for so much abuse. Pressing in some supports in the corners of the open areas will certainly help, and all the power to you, but damn you have some high goals set my friend!

    Tony, you are being a bit hard the guy don't you think? I mean he did ditch the overdrive thought on the HPFP pretty quickly after getting more input and evaluating the challenges. lol

    And very much so looking forward to your HPFP option
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

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    I want to rev to 15k but that isn't happening either.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    The VW VR6 community rev their motors to 10,000 rpm on factory hydraulic lifters, as well as the 4G63 heads with stock hydraulic lifters revving safely to 9,500 rpm.

    Again, we will not know until someone tries it out.
    The VR6's you are talking about have blocks that are practically indestructible and have been used in NA racing, turbo racing, stroked, bored, etc. Those motors have such a versatile architecture and have been around for so long you can't compare them.

    Who is even revving to 8k with an upgraded turbo on the N54 let alone throwing out some ridiculous number like 9k? The VR6's you are talking about are running port injection and are not direct injected. Fueling becomes more problematic at higher rpm's for direct injection.

    This thing gives you a bit of flexibility:

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The VR6's you are talking about have blocks that are practically indestructible and have been used in NA racing, turbo racing, stroked, bored, etc. Those motors have such a versatile architecture and have been around for so long you can't compare them.

    Who is even revving to 8k with an upgraded turbo on the N54 let alone throwing out some ridiculous number like 9k? The VR6's you are talking about are running port injection and are not direct injected. Fueling becomes more problematic at higher rpm's for direct injection.

    This thing gives you a bit of flexibility:

    http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/m...7_resize_1.jpg
    Regardless of the design of the block, the VR6 heads still utilize hydraulic lifters, which have proven themselves capable of a 10,000 rpm redline. In acquiring quality springs, retainers and cams, in theory, the remaining limiting factors for an increased rev limit is the rotating assembly (potential unknown), and lifters.

    As for the fueling, I am unaware of any potential problem in fuel delivery for a high revving engine utilizing direct injection, as long as there is an appropriate amount of fuel being pushed through the system. The Seat Leon Cupras have no problems upping their rev limiter to 9,000 rpm while still utilizing the piezo injectors.

    Yet again, no one will know until we try.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    Regardless of the design of the block, the VR6 heads still utilize hydraulic lifters, which have proven themselves capable of a 10,000 rpm redline. In acquiring quality springs, retainers and cams, in theory, the remaining limiting factors for an increased rev limit is the rotating assembly (potential unknown), and lifters.

    As for the fueling, I am unaware of any potential problem in fuel delivery for a high revving engine utilizing direct injection, as long as there is an appropriate amount of fuel being pushed through the system. The Seat Leon Cupras have no problems upping their rev limiter to 9,000 rpm while still utilizing the piezo injectors.

    Yet again, no one will know until we try.
    I'm sure hydraulic lifters can be made to rev higher and so on but the problem still would remain injecting fuel at higher rpm plus all the other associated problems like the piston speeds and just the architecture of a motor never designed to rev.

    I'm not sure what Seat Leon Cupra you are referring to but is it the one with 250 horsepower? And you're saying this applies to more than double the hp at 9000 rpm somehow? You want to inject even more fuel at a higher rpm when already encountering fueling problems before the stock redline?

    I mean go ahead and try if you want to. It's better to just start with a BMW motor designed for revs and not try to make the N54 something it can't ever be.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure hydraulic lifters can be made to rev higher and so on but the problem still would remain injecting fuel at higher rpm plus all the other associated problems like the piston speeds and just the architecture of a motor never designed to rev.

    I'm not sure what Seat Leon Cupra you are referring to but is it the one with 250 horsepower? And you're saying this applies to more than double the hp at 9000 rpm somehow? You want to inject even more fuel at a higher rpm when already encountering fueling problems before the stock redline?

    I mean go ahead and try if you want to. It's better to just start with a BMW motor designed for revs and not try to make the N54 something it can't ever be.


    ~600whp revving to 8500rpm.

    We will just have to wait and see what our platform is capable of because, as of now, it's just a guessing game.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    ~600whp revving to 8500rpm.

    We will just have to wait and see what our platform is capable of because, as of now, it's just a guessing game.
    I don't know what engine is in the car and I see no dynograph.

    Regardless, it isn't a guessing game to look at the architecture, rods, stroke, direct injection, etc., and say the motor was not built to rev. It IS a guessing game to write 9k arbitrarily on paper.

    You aren't going to hit 9k. You don't even need to hit 9k. People need to concentrate on addressing fueling issues at the current redline and there is more than enough turbocharger available to exceed the fuel system now let alone needing to rev it up more to get more power where the injection window and fuel requirements just become more difficult.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I mean go ahead and try if you want to. It's better to just start with a BMW motor designed for revs and not try to make the N54 something it can't ever be.
    whose to say what it can and can't do without ever trying? There are many motors that SHOULD perform well yet don't... there are many others that shouldn't but do.

    and not everyone wants to do what's already been done. Or even wants to do the 'best' thing... I *COULD* have gotten something with an S54... but i didn't want to. Heck, i could have gotten something RB or JZ, but getting them to make crazy power is a minimum $20-$30k exercise anyway, so not necessarily smarter lol
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    whose to say what it can and can't do without ever trying? There are many motors that SHOULD perform well yet don't... there are many others that shouldn't but do.

    and not everyone wants to do what's already been done. Or even wants to do the 'best' thing... I *COULD* have gotten something with an S54... but i didn't want to. Heck, i could have gotten something RB or JZ, but getting them to make crazy power is a minimum $20-$30k exercise anyway, so not necessarily smarter lol
    Who's to say what can and can't be done without ever trying? You can't walk on the sun. Do you need to go try it to figure that out?

    It's fine to get whatever you get but understand all motor architectures are not created equal. Nobody is revving an N54 to 9k for a reason.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Wasn't alex@abrHouston working on cams? He's offering pretty much everything else at this point.
    @Flinchy I agree man, built motor in the upper 7k range maybe 8k rpm would be sick with proper fuel. Maybe a 72mm turbo, next on the wish list as far as motor would be a stroker kit to say 3.4l, 3.2 minimum to help turn a big turbo like that.

    I honestly don't think block will hold though much past 800hp, even over 700hp long term, but we'll see. Cylinder walls will need to be addressed during a motor build. Maybe so e pressed in supports like what's his name was doing in his custom 335i build thread
    NFI on the cams. would be interested in whoever came out with a proven set though haha.

    stroker kit would indeed be cool, but that requires some more serious money. I can see it being a thing eventually though Click here to enlarge. how cool would even a 3.2 be let alone a 3.3 or 3.4!

    my money's on 900-950 average, maybe a few peeking a little higher? I'm pretty sure the few that have seen 700+ on stock everyhing have seen it for more than a few thousand miles, so that's a good sign at least? If they were daily race motors that'd maybe be a different story.

    even if we go pure torque limits/block splitting, it's seen 630ft-lb of torque as the record right? 630 @ 7000rpm would be 839hp and @8000rpm would be 959hp
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Who's to say what can and can't be done without ever trying? You can't walk on the sun. Do you need to go try it to figure that out?

    It's fine to get whatever you get but understand all motor architectures are not created equal. Nobody is revving an N54 to 9k for a reason.
    you're comparing apples to oranges.. we know you can't walk on the sun because physics and maths

    Unless you've done a lot more calculations than anyone else in the world on what the N54 can handle, and have an in depth knowledge of the metallurgy... how do YOU know what you know?

    I'm not saying it'll get to 9k rpm (though longer strokes, worse/similar R/S ratios have gone higher)... OTOH, what's to stop it hitting 9k with a long rod/destroker, right valvetrain and internals? absolutely nothing, it's well within the realms of possible to do, if that's what you wanted.... so i'm guessing the 'reason' is 'nobody has tried'... well and turbos+fuelling lol. so 'nobody has tried' and 'it's not entirely possible for OTHER reasons'
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    you're comparing apples to oranges.. we know you can't walk on the sun because physics and maths
    If only physics and mathematics applied to engines somehow.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Unless you've done a lot more calculations than anyone else in the world on what the N54 can handle, and have an in depth knowledge of the metallurgy... how do YOU know what you know?
    You seriously can't figure out that the N54 was not designed to be a high revving motor even by looking at the specs/materials?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    I'm not saying it'll get to 9k rpm (though longer strokes, worse/similar R/S ratios have gone higher)... OTOH, what's to stop it hitting 9k with a long rod/destroker, right valvetrain and internals? absolutely nothing, it's well within the realms of possible to do, if that's what you wanted.... so i'm guessing the 'reason' is 'nobody has tried'... well and turbos+fuelling lol. so 'nobody has tried' and 'it's not entirely possible for OTHER reasons'
    Sure, you can probably spend all your time figuring out how to get to 12k rpm too for no particular reason other than to hit 12k. Go ahead, go nuts. It's a giant waste of time though.

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    3 out of 4 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If only physics and mathematics applied to engines somehow.



    You seriously can't figure out that the N54 was not designed to be a high revving motor even by looking at the specs/materials?



    Sure, you can probably spend all your time figuring out how to get to 12k rpm too for no particular reason other than to hit 12k. Go ahead, go nuts. It's a giant waste of time though.
    and nothing i can see in the physics of the matter agrees with you outright? Ok besides the shortened injection window making the injectors struggle.. but even then, you'd be able to get 700+ still conservatively, as well as the obvious gearing advantages... i mean, $#@!, you're at this point potentially having 700whp flat from a bit 6500/7000 all the way to 9000rpm. that's damn good curve.... if the HPFP(s) can keep up (which is easier at high RPM's ironically)

    and why are we talking about design?

    the N54 wasn't designed to run 450whp on stock turbos, or 550whp on hybrids... it wasn't designed to make 700+whp period, let alone run a pair of GTX28's or a 6466+.... or have meth injected into it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

    Your S65 wasn't designed for a massive blower either, you've had to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get where you are and YEARS of waiting... And you're willing to throw THESE stones?

    on the last point.. now you're just being ridiculous. How is it a waste of time when every car guy over the world would motherofgod.jpg, and just about no one would forget it. I think that's just about one of the awesomest things to 'waste' your hard earned on personally haha.. Realistically, for outright performance it's a waste of money upping the redline on the S54 too high anyway. just FI it in that case... or be awesome and spend loads of money doing the lot lol.

    By the same logic it's a waste of time swapping an N54 into my car. ok yes i agree it's a completely massive ridiculous waste of time and money and effort... but is it cool? yes. am i enjoying it? yes. will it be at minimum very fast relative to most other vehicles? also yes. is it REALLY a lot of money in the grand scheme? not really.
    Last edited by Flinchy; 01-13-2014 at 02:48 AM.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    the N54 wasn't designed to run 450whp on stock turbos, or 550whp on hybrids... it wasn't designed to make 700+whp period, let alone run a pair of GTX28's or a 6466+.... or have meth injected into it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    LOL repped.

    As for your project I couldn't agree more. If everyone did the rational thing, we'd all be putting in LSx's instead of ST's with built motors. And I guess BTMFR does have some goals at least in that regard, he wants to keep the motor. That works for me. 9K RPM or(and) bust!

  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    and nothing i can see in the physics of the matter agrees with you outright? Ok besides the shortened injection window making the injectors struggle.. but even then, you'd be able to get 700+ still conservatively, as well as the obvious gearing advantages... i mean, $#@!, you're at this point potentially having 700whp flat from a bit 6500/7000 all the way to 9000rpm. that's damn good curve.... if the HPFP(s) can keep up (which is easier at high RPM's ironically)

    and why are we talking about design?

    the N54 wasn't designed to run 450whp on stock turbos, or 550whp on hybrids... it wasn't designed to make 700+whp period, let alone run a pair of GTX28's or a 6466+.... or have meth injected into it. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    I just don't think you understand RPM whatsoever. Making 550 whp means what? You can rev to the moon? What does it have to do with 9000 rpm exactly?

    Not even once have you mentioned the rod angle, piston speeds, or stroke. All you have mentioned is "oh I bet it can be done" just because of some wave of optimism that has no basis in reality.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Your S65 wasn't designed for a massive blower either, you've had to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get where you are and YEARS of waiting... And you're willing to throw THESE stones?
    My S65 was designed for revs though, wasn't it?

    I didn't have to wait long at all for a blower, what are you talking about? I also don't have to dream about 9k rpm as if I want it I can get it with just a reflash not with having to re-engineer the entire motor as BMW tested the motor at over 10k already, I wonder why? http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-Over-9000-rpm

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    on the last point.. now you're just being ridiculous. How is it a waste of time when every car guy over the world would motherofgod.jpg, and just about no one would forget it. I think that's just about one of the awesomest things to 'waste' your hard earned on personally haha.. Realistically, for outright performance it's a waste of money upping the redline on the S54 too high anyway. just FI it in that case... or be awesome and spend loads of money doing the lot lol.
    The N54 isn't designed for it. Go ahead and try to fit a square peg into a round hole. You're basically daydreaming. Once people address fuel issues at current rpm levels maybe then we can start thinking about big RPM although the fuel demands will grow exponentially. I guess nobody has done it simply because nobody has tried right? It has nothing to do with the actual engine design?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    By the same logic it's a waste of time swapping an N54 into my car. ok yes i agree it's a completely massive ridiculous waste of time and money and effort... but is it cool? yes. am i enjoying it? yes. will it be at minimum very fast relative to most other vehicles? also yes. is it REALLY a lot of money in the grand scheme? not really.
    I like seeing different things done but people are blindly believing any rpm can be hit and it's laughable.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    LOL repped.
    L O L here's what 9k looks like:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...DCT-to-8800rpm



    Keep dreaming

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    1) I would say that moving the redline on this car up gets exponentially harder starting at 7500RPM and doubling for each 500RPM you add. Feasibly, for 9k RPM, you need to ditch the VANOS. Probably ditch as much weight from the chain as you can, so run the HPFP off something else. Springs/cams/heads. Oiling system needs evaluated for that speed. Fuel delivery will be compromised for high power at those RPM's with DI. Engine would have to be de-stroked, converted to closed deck and more. For starters. Possible though sure why not, just throw money at it. You won't have to fight me here, just physics, metallurgy, engineers and cute puppies from around the world.
    Yep. Basically take the N54 and ditch everything that makes it the N54 and then go chase RPM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I just don't think you understand RPM whatsoever. Making 550 whp means what? You can rev to the moon? What does it have to do with 9000 rpm exactly?

    Not even once have you mentioned the rod angle, piston speeds, or stroke. All you have mentioned is "oh I bet it can be done" just because of some wave of optimism that has no basis in reality.



    My S65 was designed for revs though, wasn't it?

    I didn't have to wait long at all for a blower, what are you talking about? I also don't have to dream about 9k rpm as if I want it I can get it with just a reflash not with having to re-engineer the entire motor as BMW tested the motor at over 10k already, I wonder why? http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-Over-9000-rpm



    The N54 isn't designed for it. Go ahead and try to fit a square peg into a round hole. You're basically daydreaming. Once people address fuel issues at current rpm levels maybe then we can start thinking about big RPM although the fuel demands will grow exponentially. I guess nobody has done it simply because nobody has tried right? It has nothing to do with the actual engine design?



    I like seeing different things done but people are blindly believing any rpm can be hit and it's laughable.
    no, you were talking about what it's 'designed' to do. Ignoring the pure RPM discussion. YOu can make things do things the designers never even dreamed of, it just takes a) money and b) talent... I don't really have enough of either in this, so i'm not going to be a person owning a 9k RPM N54 any time soon lol.

    i have actually mentioned rod:stroke and stroke, which implies piston speed as a concern. The stroke isn't super long, and the R:S while not optimal, isn't terrible, and can easily be increased into the 1.6x range... which alleviates the piston angle issue.

    Yes it (your S65) was designed for revs, but it wasn't designed for boost.. same thing.. the N54 is the opposite.. you have to do the same amount of work either way to achieve what you want. just think about it for a second.. in one you have to overcome a design not built for boost (high comp, light weight all the things, not the strongest block material.. other inherent issues... not to mention the DCT designed for quick shifts not bulk torque).. and the other you have to overcome a design built for a moderate 'sporty' car (rod length, piston speeds, direct injection supply/fuelling.. and potentially/likely also block strength) both of these issues take time, design and money... both can be fixed.

    the 'king of power' japanese motors were never designed for what they can now do (some packages are built for regular 12k RPm abuse... do you really think when the engineers built their 7k rpm.. then 8k rpm, for RB.. motors, that spinning to 12k rpm in built billet stroker kits was a concern? absolutely not.

    yeah the motor setup was fast (but still far into 5 figures lol), the trans less so...

    do you constantly $#@! all over the N54 just so everyone takes it as a challenge?.. seriously. say.. people who like putting LS*s into cars that have no business accepting them, and are going to have nothing but chassis flex until they tear in half... is it a good idea? ehhh.. is it cost effective? hah. is it safe? LOL.. is it $#@!ing awesome? is the sky blue?

    I'm not saying anyone (unless they're ridiculously loaded) could go out right now and do whatever they want to the N54.. but there's nothing stopping just about any kind of redesign.. the components aren't set in stone.. $#@!, if someone had enough money there's no reason they couldn't custom make a billet block. just money.

    again, there's no reason it can't hit stupid revs.. whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant, it just takes enough money. If there was more money injected into making a working port injection setup, for example, it would be done.. as it is, it's one guy (who works hard of course) who needs people to help. not everyone is like tony or alex (just went.. $#@! yes, i want me a piece of this pie), or say terry or dzenno even (made enough money working their way through the platform).
    Last edited by Flinchy; 01-13-2014 at 07:03 AM.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yep. Basically take the N54 and ditch everything that makes it the N54 and then go chase RPM.
    the only issue i have is removing the VANOS... and i agree with what you just said otherwise.. removing the vanos and it's just a laggy 3.0 6cyl with a huge turbo strapped to it. VANOS helps with spool, response, power.. more than anything, if you have to remove GOOD features to make something work, it's a waste of time imo and i'd then agree with you entirely.

    OTHERWISE... i have no problem with ditching just about everything in the pursuit of a fully upgraded motor

    nothing wrong with taking a base design and improving on it, that's the whole point of modifying cars Click here to enlarge

    personally, i couldn't care if no one ever hits 9k RPM.. i'd love if it were to happen, i'd rather concentrate on MORE realistic goals (even 8k rpm, and more power haha). What's the point without dreaming though? this guy's just set his dreams a little higher than normal lol.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If only physics and mathematics applied to engines somehow.
    LOL. Seriously, breathing fuel etc aside, though I thought there were basic resonance/harmonics issues on straight 6 motors that people knew about. You can't just indiscriminately crank it up to arbitrary RPM's without running into them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
    LOL. Seriously, breathing fuel etc aside, though I thought there were basic resonance/harmonics issues on straight 6 motors that people knew about. You can't just indiscriminately crank it up to arbitrary RPM's without running into them.
    which harmonics/resonance issues? considering straight 6 is one of the 1st+2nd (and sometimes 3rd) harmonically balanced configurations... so the only real hurdle THERE is making sure everything is as close to perfectly balanced and straight as you can possibly get it. That's the main reason why (by and large) inline 6 petrol motors rev higher than any other for the displacement (and sometimes outright)

    the only problem with the inline 6 (mitigated through said precision balancing, as well as the fact the cranks have counterweights and the crank dampener/pulley being tuned for the motor.. another reason the light weight pulley wasn't good for the N54) is torsional vibrations made worse by the length of the crank... or if you use the wrong firing order, which some manufacturers have done of course.

    similar story for all motors though, just the issues are slightly different.. if you're making a lot of power and or revving high, you have to make sure clearancing and balancing is spot on, I6 or otherwise.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    which harmonics/resonance issues? considering straight 6 is one of the 1st+2nd (and sometimes 3rd) harmonically balanced configurations... so the only real hurdle THERE is making sure everything is as close to perfectly balanced and straight as you can possibly get it. That's the main reason why (by and large) inline 6 petrol motors rev higher than any other for the displacement (and sometimes outright)

    the only problem with the inline 6 (mitigated through said precision balancing, as well as the fact the cranks have counterweights and the crank dampener/pulley being tuned for the motor.. another reason the light weight pulley wasn't good for the N54) is torsional vibrations made worse by the length of the crank... or if you use the wrong firing order, which some manufacturers have done of course.

    similar story for all motors though, just the issues are slightly different.. if you're making a lot of power and or revving high, you have to make sure clearancing and balancing is spot on, I6 or otherwise.
    It's been a (long) while since I looked it up but I vaguely remember the issue was torsional modes of the relatively long crankshaft. Harmonic balancer very important on straight 6.

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    Some reason the boards went down as I was editing above post. Anyway long time ago was surprised to find torsional issues on I6 engines of 3.0l or so begin to crop up around 8k RPM according to back of the envelope calc. Point is it is worth paying attention to may be an expensive experiment to crank it up beyond 8k under large loads.

    The other thing is fuel window on DI engines is very narrow already, main reason we need huge PSI is to get all the fuel into the CC after the intake valves closes but prior to spark. That much worse @ 9k other issues aside.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajsalida Click here to enlarge
    Some reason the boards went down as I was editing above post. Anyway long time ago was surprised to find torsional issues on I6 engines of 3.0l or so begin to crop up around 8k RPM according to back of the envelope calc. Point is it is worth paying attention to may be an expensive experiment to crank it up beyond 8k under large loads.

    The other thing is fuel window on DI engines is very narrow already, main reason we need huge PSI is to get all the fuel into the CC after the intake valves closes but prior to spark. That much worse @ 9k other issues aside.
    Bingo.

    N54 will not be revving to 9K guys. I say shoot for 7500 and enjoy your engine for awhile.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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